Episode 54: Inclusion Basics and Beyond at the Secondary Level

Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

A note from the host: as this and several future episodes were pre-recorded, you will hear references to New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, also known as NJCIE, which has since undergone a name change to All In for Inclusive Education. Please note that, although it has a new name, All In for Inclusive Education is still doing its usual awesome things.

Today I welcome my guests Kathleen Derillo and Jennifer Horne. Kathleen is the District Supervisor of Special Services and Projects in the Kenilworth school district. Jennifer is the Supervisor of Special Services at Bridgewater Raritan Regional High School. During our conversation, we discussed helpful communication and collaboration strategies and how educators can incorporate these practices to meet the needs of all learners.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and this podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am joined today by my two guests, Kathleen Drill and Jennifer Horne.

So thank you both for joining me today for our conversation.

Jennifer: Thanks for having us.

Kathleen: Yes, thank you.

Arthur: You’re welcome. So can you both share with us a little bit about yourselves? Tell us who you are, what you do, and how you became interested in inclusive education.

We'll start with Kathleen and then Jennifer, you can go.

Kathleen: Okay. So I am currently the district supervisor of special services in Kenilworth.

My responsibilities include pre-K through 12 Special Education and other supports for other students support systems such as Final Four and mental health systems. So for me, I always had an interest in inclusive education. Early in my teaching career, I taught a self-contained class within a large public high school, and there was a series of separate structures, including classes developed for my kids.

And I always wondered why we didn't have inclusive classes, why we didn't have something that could benefit the students in the self-contained class, plus the greater school community. So since then, I've been working to kind of create structures and systems to support inclusive education that can withstand different leaderships, different teachers, real, true systematic change in my different positions.

Arthur: That’s great. It sounds I always like hearing how people got to where they are. So thank you for sharing that. And Jennifer, if you could share a little bit about yourself?

Jennifer: Of course. I'm Jenn Horne. I'm currently the supervisor of special services at Bridgewater Raritan High School. Prior to this, I've been a classroom teacher, a paraprofessional, an LDTC.

I've worked in various capacities in the field for the past almost 25 years. My passion for inclusive Ed has really just picked up over the last ten years as a supervisor, to be honest with you. I think I look back on my self-contained career and there were times that I was advocating for inclusion and I don't really think I knew I was doing it when I was in a public school.

My classroom was never invited to something simple, like an assembly that was in the gymnasium. And all of a sudden I said, Well, can my class come to it? And we would go in and we would sit and they would make me so proud. I didn't realize that that was the work that I would be doing, 15 years later.

Jennifer: But currently, I think my passion really kind of became ignited when I got the opportunity to work through legal cases and things like that with NJCIE, and parents, parents who were just advocating and wanting similar experiences for their students. And I just have learned so much through this journey. And it has, every day I wake up just more hopeful that we can have more inclusion and accessibility for all learners.

I don't think that this is this dream of inclusion, this gift of inclusion, this right of inclusion is even something that we think of one particular profile of student. It's really about everybody that is under that special education umbrella. And that makes me excited at the possibilities of what and how this can change and impact the lives of students and the family's lives.

Arthur: I love that you just said it makes you excited. That's great. It's really it's so important that we work toward having inclusive cultures in our school districts and having the people be excited about it.

I think that is what helps make that makes that change possible. And I also enjoy that you said you were doing inclusion before you might have known what it was by just simply asking if your students can be included in the assemblies, which is a really big thing for that to happen.

So thank you both for sharing your stories and your journeys of where you are today.

Arthur: And my next question is how do you define inclusive education?

Jennifer: Kathleen, do you want to start or do you want me to?

Kathleen: I feel like I could write a thesis on the definition of inclusion. When you think about inclusion, it's so expansive because it involves the student, but it also involves the family involved, the school community, the greater community.

It involves administrators and putting words to it, I really think of it as this dynamic system to provide access and rich, meaningful experiences for all learners, regardless of their ability to really develop this community of learners as students in an academic sense, but in a more greater sense as people of the world, as someone in society who's open to neurodiversity and differences.

So I see it as very school-based, but I see it as it's like beautiful blossom beyond the school building.

Jennifer: That was probably one of the most world-perfect answers. I don't know how I'm going to follow that up. I don't know that I can picture it perfectly. I think when we were preparing for the NJCIE conference, we were talking about just what inclusion looks like in the classroom.

And my brain always goes to what it looks like in an elementary classroom. I think it's always easier to think of inclusion with little students and younger families. But, I think now as I've gotten connected to high schools and middle schools, I now see it so much bigger and broader. I hope that schools one day can really be a window to what the rest of the world does.

Everybody is together, right? And we were supposed to help each other and be supportive of each other and kind to each other no matter what our baggage is or our needs or anything like that. I guess my hope is that someday that is what school looks like, regardless of the doors you're walking through, where regardless if it's an elementary or preschool, or if you're going into a college classroom, it's really just about belonging.

And no one thinking twice about what that feels or looks like.

Arthur: Both were very great answers. And I think for me,when I was listening to both of you share your answers, it's the collaboration and the work that it takes from everybody is so important. And it's not just in the school, it's outside of the school as well.

And as you mentioned, that the world outside of school, everybody is together. And that is what, you know, schools. That's what we strive for schools to look like as well with, all the students being able to work together in the same classrooms. And I think those are two very great definitions of how you view inclusion.

So thank you for sharing.

Arthur: So we we were talking a little bit before we started recording about our plan for this current season of this podcast, which is to highlight some of the presentations that took place at the end of the NJCIE Summer Inclusion Conference back in June. So both of you were co-presenters in a session that was called Inclusion Basics and beyond at the secondary level.

So that is so important. As you mentioned Jenn, starting inclusion at the elementary level is so important, but at the secondary level, it's important to continue those, you know, those strategies and and the whole plan of inclusion. So during your session, you addressed helpful strategies for communication and collaboration.

Why do you feel that communication and collaboration are key components of inclusion?

Kathleen: Communication and collaboration, it’s interesting. I think when I began as an administrator 12, 13, 14 years ago, I assumed that everyone would come to the table with a similar belief structure, a similar can-do attitude, and a similar strength-based approach. And everyone's background, for whatever reason is not that.

So I think I learned a little quickly and had to adjust on my feet that really communication and collaboration is an understanding also of everyone comes with a different perspective, different experiences, and biases and really purposeful communication and collaboration provides the opportunity to develop norms, shared understandings, and really the ability to operate under a shared vision.

So it's almost like the prerequisites to inclusion, to meaningful conversations is building this kind of work behind the scenes. Having open communication allows the team to really operate more effectively to navigate those challenges and interact in a manner that's both professional and student-centered. And I think in being an inclusion leader that behind the scenes and kind of priming people priming systems is something that, if overlooked, you might have to double back and take more time before you move forward together.

Jenn: think of the communication and collaboration lens is this is teamwork. This inclusionary experiences are not going to happen with one person kind of heading the work. It's this whole team like Kathleen said of all these different experiences and expertize that have to come together and have to communicate.

Sometimes, part of that journey includes difficult conversations and challenges and obstacles. But the only way we need to get to the point where this is just the work we are doing rather than we hope to accomplish it someday. Because this is a civil right. This is these are conversations we need to be having, not want to have or wish to have.

And I think that we need to acknowledge that sometimes, the plan that we put in place may not be the right one at that moment in time. But you come back to the table and you try again, and that's through communication, collaboration and mutual respect. Having that professional dialog, like Kathleen said, is not negotiable.

Jenn: We need to work together to make this the reality rather than the the hope to have some day.

Arthur: Yes, I love both of your answers. I'm always inspired myself having these conversations with individuals who are so passionate about the need for inclusion and making it happen. And so many other people have mentioned that collaboration is key to making inclusion happen, and like you said, going beyond just the hope or the wish that we can do. It’s just getting the right people involved in the conversations and having mutual respect and having the conversations.

Arthur: So my next question is, can you share two potential challenges that may come up at the secondary level when a district is working toward an inclusive culture and strategies for how they can potentially overcome these challenges?

Kathleen: Sure. This was, I think, one of the more popular elements of our presentation at the Summer Inclusion Leadership Conference because these are real-life things that happen that kind of pop up that you typically don't expect, but they're real. And to the people who kind of present the barrier or challenge, it's real to them.

The first one right off the bat, I think about a challenge is teachers saying that they won't make curricular modifications.

They can't do it and they won't do it. They worry about the integrity of their curriculum. They worry about getting through the standards, and some may not want to make materials. Let's hope it's because they feel like they don't have the skill set yet, but for whatever reason they don't want to modify the curriculum.

And really this argument is almost one of the easiest ones to kind of dispel and say it's okay because we have Chapter 14, the code that kind of guides special education in New Jersey. I think it's page 96 and it says no student with a disability can be kept out of a general education classroom solely because of the need for modifications.

Kathleen: So right there, that's almost the permission some teachers need to say, okay, I can take a breath. I don't have to worry about this student mastering every standard. It's not about that.

It's about access and providing them with material on their level, the material that they can navigate and engage with and be enriched from. So within that challenge, administrators, coaches need to show teachers how to make modifications.

What do you do? How can you change the lexical level of something? How can you adjust your comprehension questions? How can you test in a different way for that student to show their mastery doesn't have to be a Scantron with 300 multiple choices. There are other ways to assess other ways to do it.

Kathleen: So for me, I think that I can't make modifications. I won't do it. It's not right. It's not fair. Right off the bat. That's one of the biggest ones.

A second one, I would say is a mindset that a student with a disability needs to earn their way into a general education classroom, that they need to show certain independent skills, certain communication skills, and certain academic skills.

No one has to earn their way into an inclusive setting. That is where we begin the conversation. And the IEP is this beautiful, harmonious document that gives us opportunities for goals and objectives, supplementary aides and services, and accommodations and modifications. So starting with the belief that students can, looking at their assets, and avoiding deficit based thinking and our own biases are the kind of strategies to navigate that.

But students don't have to earn their way in to anywhere. That's what they're entitled to. It's also, I think, two big ones for me,

Jenn: and I'm actually going to piggyback on those a little bit. I think mindset is one of the biggest roadblocks and from that it can mean so many different things. But I do think there is a component that is unspoken.

I think this inclusionary journey for professionals is very personal and you kind of have to get to this point as a professional that you're like, this makes sense. I'm supposed to be doing this. I'm supposed to have three or four different assignments in my classroom that should be the that's should just be the norm in our classrooms, because all of our classrooms, regardless if we're talking special ed or not, we have a range of guys in that classroom that have all different needs and strengths and passions and all that kind of good stuff.

So I think there's a mindset, but there's also this. I wonder if the teachers are saying, I'm not sure I can do this. I'm not sure that I have the skill set to modify and make sure I'm giving every single learner in my classroom everything that they deserve while they're there with me and my, my, my four walls. So I think that that takes time.

I think that takes conversation and that kind of piggybacks into that second obstacle of time.

We have to make the time for this to be everything it should be and could be for students and families. We have to make regular check ins. We have to talk about what's working, what's not working.

Jenn: If it means me coming into the classroom to kind of, you know, give you an extra set of hands until you get the idea of how you want to run small groups or run a station-based lesson in your classroom, let's do it.

That's the priority. That's the work that needs to be done. And I do think there's a lot of time and collaboration, right? To kind of go back full circle to one of our questions is just collaborating and learning from each other.

Because special ed is one of the coolest groups to work with. There are so many different Expertize, right? We've got our related services, we've got our different learning specialists, we've got our social and emotional learning specialists. We've got so many great people at the table, but we need to include them all and have those conversations and continue to have those conversations. I think for inclusion to be truly successful and meaningful for all of our guys.

Arthur: Thank you again for two great answers. I enjoy these conversations so much and I can definitely feel both of you, your passion that you have for the topic and the work that you're doing. So thank you again for this great conversation.

And to wrap up the conversation, we’re asking all of our guests to share any resources that you may have that you would like to share with our listeners.

So this can be a book or a movie, websites, YouTube videos or whatever, whatever resource you have that you would suggest for our listeners to find that relates to the topic of inclusion at the secondary level.

Kathleen: I think that Jen and I probably both have this book on our list. We love. I love the 30 Days to the Co-taught Classroom by Paula Kluth and Julie Causton. A tangible workbook that teachers can sit with together and plan their co-taught lessons.

It talks about troubleshooting, it talks about modifications, it talks about the models. Fabulous book. It's blends theory and practice in a very beautiful manner. The second one, a Nathan Levinson book. It's called Six Shifts to Improve Special Education and Other Interventions, a great data-driven book with strategies for school leaders to adjust to work on achievement for students with disabilities.

We all love Shelley Moore, fantastic for PD. She just takes concepts that can seem so big and abstract and just makes them tangible and just lets people understand kind of the different topics. So I love her YouTube videos and I've recently been reading some of Norman Coontz work. His writings and videos are well worth a view, talking about disability and inclusion.

Jenn: I’ve got a couple others to add to that list. I think one of the most inspiring books that I've read recently over the past couple of years is Reimagining Special Education by Dr. I believe it's Jana Mancini-Rufko, and I believe Dr. Coustin as well. And it really is very accessible. It's a nice short read, short paragraphs, but short chapters, but really powerful messages.

And one of the best chapters in that is just about reimagining the instruction of special ed. And it really goes and compares the medical models and the social models of disabilities. I myself was just very inspired by it. Another really great resource on Twitter is Elizabeth Stein. She does a lot of work on the secondary level.

I believe she's a teacher out of Long Island or Staten Island. I forget which one, but she really is an expert at that secondary level. So I think that I really like her work because it is so applicable to what we do. She's like, I ran this lesson and these are the stations that I ran and stuff like that.

So she's got a couple of books, but she does a lot of just tweeting out and a lot of great, great ideas that teachers could hit the ground running with.

Jenn: And then my my movie that I would suggest, because I always love a good movie is Peanut Butter Falcon with Shia LaBeouf. I don't know if either of you have seen it, but it is it really it really makes you think it really makes you appreciate how lucky we are to have all different kinds of people that we can learn from and interact with and inspire us.

It's a great book about people not really giving this young man with a disability a voice, and this guy who knows nothing about disabilities or anything like that interacts with him and is like, why doesn't anybody listen to him? He's fantastic. He knows exactly what he wants. He's got a plan and let's make this plan happen.

It's just a simple story about empowering people. And it's really a fantastic movie.

Arthur: Thank you.

Kathleen: We found our third C! I was just thinking about when Jenn was saying this Arthur. We talked about communication, collaboration and that third C is community and within these resources, finding also people that are your community. Jen is part of my inclusive community.

When I have ideas, when I have challenges, I can call her and say, Do you think I'm crazy? What do you think about this idea? Can we make it work? And I think if you don't have a community yet, NJCIE is a nice a nice place to start. So just thinking about the third C community.

Arthur: hank you for this great conversation and those resources. I have not seen that movie yet, but I do plan to watch.

Jenn: Oh, you have to watch.

Arthur: I've heard so many good things about it. I have to find it and see where I can watch it. But it's it's great to have this conversation with you both. So thank you again for taking time out of your day to speak with me.

And I will be in touch with you both.

Kathleen: Thank you.

Jenn: Thanks for taking the time to talk with us. I love having these conversations and just collaborating. So we appreciate your time.

Arthur: Oh, yes, you're welcome. And this is it's great to have these conversations. And I really believe that through having conversations, this is how we can create the change that we all want to see, that we know what's possible.

And so I appreciate it.

Jenn and Kathleen: Thank you.

Arthur: You’re welcome.