Episode 53: A Small Perspective Change Can Eliminate Resource Rooms in High School

TRANSCRIPT

Arthur: Welcome to The Inclusion Think Tank podcast where we talk about inclusive education why it works and how to make it happen. A note from the host, as this and several future episodes were pre-recorded you will hear references to New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, also known as NJCIE, which has undergone a name change to All In for Inclusive Education.

Please note that although it has a new name, All In for Inclusive Education is still doing its usual awesome things.

On this episode, I welcome my guests, Rachael Graves and Mary Rose Pullo who are mathematics teachers at Mainland Regional High School Rachel and Mary Rose join me today to discuss the necessary steps that need to be taken to eliminate resource rooms in high school and why it may not be as difficult as you may think

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. I'm your host, Arthur Aston. And we are back with a new episode today. I would like to welcome my guest, Mary Rose Pullo and Rachael Graves. Thank you both for joining me today.

It's great to have you on and I'm glad to see you both are in the same location.

Mary Rose & Rachael: Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Arthur: Yes. So this new season of the podcast, we are highlighting a lot of the presenters who presented at our summer conference back in June. And so both of you did present at our conference, and I would like to start the podcast off by having you introduce yourself and telling us a little bit about what you do and how you became interested in the world of inclusive education.

Mary Rose: I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and when I originally started teaching, I was actually in my early forties coming out of the computer industry as a mathematician. A few years into my teaching, they asked me to teach Algebra I with an inclusion in an inclusion classroom. Quite frankly, I didn't think I could do it, but I actually never looked back after we got there.

So over the course of time I really only had a few co teachers. Rachael has been my co teacher for ten years now. I guess that's something like ten years now. And through many discussions and debates and arguments and whatnot, we've really come up with what we think is a really good way of educating all students. And we just and I think that probably one of the biggest things is, that we just we don't lower our standards.

We give everybody the opportunity to learn the maximum amount of information that they possibly can and just give and know that it's possible. That's like the biggest thing is actually know that it's possible. About a year and a half ago, the idea of actually having complete inclusion, which means eliminating the idea of resource rooms, was suggested by a consultant that came into our building and we thought about it for a while and said, okay, fine, we can give this a shot, because I don't know, after thing and I shouldn't say that like now.

Now I'm not so sure what we were thinking then because things have changed since then, because it actually worked. I think that there was a lot of debate as to whether or not it made sense and how we would actually pull that off and but that's hence the name of our workshop was a small perspective change because that is really what it comes down to.

You just have to appreciate the fact that it really doesn't matter what classroom somebody's sitting and they can learn and putting them in a small, what I call solitary confinement is not necessarily the best situation for them to learn. And that's kind of how we got here today.

Rachael Well, I'm Rachel Graves and this is my 15th year of teaching. I think

I didn't intend to go into education. It was more of a strong suggestion from my dad and he was an alternate school principal, so he was like, I've seen this with a lot of people. They go to school for something else, they go back for education. So like, you should just go for education. And I said, All right, whatever.

So I did that. And then my school offered a special education certification as an elective option. And he's like, You should get that. And I was like, Oh, I don't know if I want to do that. And he said, Well, you got a job. So he told me to do that. And then I was like, I want to teach elementary.

And then I graduated and one of the high school my dad worked for, they were like, Hey, we'll give you a job if you start a lacrosse team. And I said, okay. So I ended up in high school as an inclusion teacher, and that's what I've been doing since. So it was kind of like that was just like opportunities presented themselves.

I thought teaching math would be fun. And so I was wrong. I'm in experience and I it's taken me a while to get here where I'm like, this is good. Like, I like what I'm doing, but I do like what I'm doing and I think it is because we've kind of like shifted our gears into like our new inclusive environment and it's made my day more enjoyable.

And I think the kids days are more enjoyable and I have enjoyed my job since we've kind of like switched gears. So that's how I ended up where I am.

Arthur: That’s great. I'd like to hear how people got to where they are like you said, it may not have been your original plan of how you what you wanted to do, but now that you're there and you're doing it and you've been doing it for quite some time, it's you know, you enjoy it.

And I like what you said that, you know, you don't lower the standards for your students, but you know, you realize you work with them to to figure out how that's the best way they can, understand and learn the material.

And I will admit, math was not my best subject at school. I just I didn't understand it, but as I did get older and got into college, actually, I had somewhat of an understanding of the different classes of statistics class. So, yes.

So can you both share what does inclusive education mean to you? How would you define inclusive education?

Rachael: So I think we've taken the approach that inclusive education is giving everyone the opportunity to experience everything. And then, like we said, like not lowering that standard, but allowing them to work to the best of their ability with their peers. So we've eliminated that resource room, which means that these students are with their peers and doing what their peers are doing, but they might have some modifications or accommodations if necessary, to meet their peers where they are.

So I think it's meeting their peers where they are, and giving them that opportunity to be equals with that. So they don't feel different. And that's been like a huge thing for us this year.

Mary Rose: Because while the how it's interesting to say like because we call in in the industry we call this stuff in differentiated education or differentiated curriculum or differentiated this or differentiated that.

But basically, and I guess the only thing that we have that's differentiated is our expectations. So because I don't want anybody to feel different and they really don't I mean, like every once in a while I want to know why, you know, why is he doing this? And I'm doing that nice little note. Why do you eat peanut butter and eat chicken?

And it's just like it's it's okay. We don't all have to actually be doing exactly the same thing to accomplish the goal at the end, you know, And I but that is what it is. It's actually not being different. That is the ultimate goal of inclusion

Rachael: I think our students that was the biggest change for them is they a lot of them said like I'm no longer in special education and like they were excited that they weren't in special ed classes and they like liked that they were doing what everyone else was doing.

And like we said, when you differentiate, this has been our biggest issue for years is like and this is the question I get from everyone, and I think this is what most people back is when you differentiate, you're like, I'm going to have a class within a class. And we've like wondered, how do you do that?

How do you teach two classes? And that's the that's the perspective change you had is that you're not teaching to the masses. You are providing the supports in the class you already have, and then the students aren't in a class within a class. And I think that's what people struggle with. So that's what has made our classroom work, is we finally realized we're not bringing a different class and we're just going to modify the supports we get in that.

So that's helped us.

Mary Rose: One of the things that's actually like allowed this to come into play is something that was established inside of the regular ED classroom long before we ever did this.

And that was also something that is not necessarily agreed upon by everyone. But we basically took what this course is and looked at everything that the state suggests that one should learn in this course. And I see that being that is the curriculum for any course, because that's really the way this is. You're supposed to teach and break it down.

And rather than I don't know, we took out some of the typical buzzwords like units and sections and page 72 and whatnot, so that it was literally just the topic or the concept. that had a very specific name to it rather than unit one. It really was solving systems of equations. So all of the ideas were put together in scales.

We'll say this, and we said, okay, fine, in order to accomplish mastery, we'll call it in this particular area or that particular area, these are the things that you have to be able to do and you're working towards doing those things. And that's how we evaluated every student was their progress towards working towards that overall goal. And that was a dynamic thing.

You didn't have to do it by Friday because if you just got some place by Friday, and somebody got to, let's say, had greater understanding on Friday than you do it, it didn't matter because next Friday your understanding would go up and we weren't competing with other students. It was just you just need to try to get to as close to the top of this ladder as you can.

But I did that with regular ed kids. Well, that in itself just lends it like falls right into place within in the inclusion environment, because that's the same thing you're doing with any child who has a learning disability in any capacity because you're just basically asking them to continue to try to climb the ladder towards mastering this topic or that topic along the way.

And I'm not putting it necessarily like this time frame one. This is if you don't do it by here, you're done this. It's just let's do the best you can when you get here. And then if you haven't reached the top by then we'll continue, we'll try again next week. That is a part that teachers really struggle with because they're on a time schedule there, aren't they?

Everything is very structured. You cannot do this and be structured like the structure is very flexible, but there is structure to it, but it's incredibly flexible.

Arthur: Yeah, I was as you were talking, I was thinking like, wow, that takes off a lot of pressure. It relieves a lot of pressure. I felt myself getting calm like, Wow, that's really great.

I will try to reach the top, but if we don't, we'll try it again. Like having that flexibility is a great message, a really great message to send. And as we've mentioned, you are both co-presented at our summer inclusion conference presented by NJCIE back in June, which is hard to believe. That was in June already,

The title of your presentation was a small perspective Change can eliminate resource room in high School. So can you both share why you feel it is important to eliminate resource rooms at the high school level?

Rachael: So this was actually, as a special education teacher, this was something I pushed back a little bit about because I think we are comfortable with what we know.

And we see success by what we think success looks like in a resource room. I thought my students were being successful, so for me to pull them from that environment where I know I've seen them in like an inclusion setting where they struggled and then I saw them in a resource room setting where I thought they did a lot better.

It was hard for me to see the merit in eliminating the resource room. But Mary Rose and Bonnie, our inclusion specialist, they the one day they were like, Why don't you think this is successful? And it was the conversation we had where they were saying to me, like, you just have this definition of success, but your students feel successful.

What they're doing looks like success. And that was the conversation we had where your definition of success as a teacher might need to shift because we're used to one thing and success can look like many different things, but you have to change your perspective on what that might be and not lowering the bar, but just what does that look like in a inclusion class versus a resource room class?

Rachael: And is there a benefit to them being secluded from their peers versus being in that room? Are they learning more? And we realize now they're not like they're they're actually learning more in and inclusion setting because we're not limiting what they're exposed to or what we're teaching. We're modifying the curriculum so that success what you think is successful, needs to be different.

And that was a big perspective change for me.

Mary Rose: Yes, but she hit the nail on the head. I could continue to talk, but it would just be being repetitive. But because that there were there were many conversations that Rachel and I had, we should call them arguments, debates behind a closed door where she was like, I don't know how this is going to work.

and I and I can't suggest that I did either. Like, that wasn't necessarily the case. I just was bound, determined to see what we could do. And that one day when we started talking about that, I was just like, why is it you think that they're not as successful And it was like, Yeah, I i guess that's right.

And that's where we got the small perspective change because it really is just a matter of because as teachers, again it's a structure they have to do this in order for them to have accomplished what I want them to accomplish. And here's the big thing. That was what I want them to accomplish. And that's not necessarily necessary. Just because I want you to do it doesn't necessarily make it right or necessary.

Arthur: Yes.

Mary Rose: And, those are the different things. It's like that. And that's where that flexibility comes in. Say, okay, fine. Can you broaden what can you broaden what success might look like knowing that? Because by the same token, I also might have wider expected wins or or for it for a student to is is actually is of higher learning and I might ask them to do a little bit more or ask them or provide them with something else because otherwise I'm actually like diminishing their potential for success if I don't enrich what they're doing because it works at both ends of the spectrum.

Arthur: Yes, I like what you were saying, Rachael, that being in special education you had your way of thinking and understanding things and, switching is always so difficult to make change, to do change. Yeah. So especially when you learn things a certain way and we're taught that this is the best option for the students. It's difficult to change perspectives.

I wrote are three ways but you know you can get as many as you like. What are three ways that educators can change their perspective in the classroom that can most benefit not just students with disabilities, but all the students in the classroom?

Rachael: So I think that when we talk about this, a lot of people think it needs to be a list

And we did, too. It's going to be a lot of work and it is work, but it's going to be this huge change to everything you've done in your classroom. So a lot of people I've talked to are like, This is impossible. I don't have the time. And what we realized is what you're doing is changing what success looks like.

And when we say that, what we mean is students that are struggling to be successful, they might need help from a classroom aide or one of us when they are working on something. And if they can do that with assistance, that might be what their A looks like in your class. And so we really talk about like when we talk about levels of understanding, we've shifted to independence level for students.

So instead of, you have to learn this, this, this and this to get in a we've shifted to we're going to give you everything, but can you do it independently? And that independence level is different for the students in our class. So some of our students, they're not going to be able to do it from memory.

So that wouldn’t it makes sense to make that the like our general education students because of the way the state is in the testing. Sure, that's their grading, but we modify the grading for other students if necessary. And that is in a might be. You need to use your notes for an example. And that's fine because really, if you can like use the notebooks we've created for you or look on like delta math at the examples or Excel, the examples we've given and do that, like that's great.

And you can do it by yourself with notes. That's wonderful. Or a B might be or an A for some students might be. Yeah. You get an adult help in class or a student that helps you.

Mary Rose: We’ve tried different methods of where we would say like where we would talk about going from, you know, a C to an A, if you're using that as your measure, as in terms of using depth, of understanding of a particular topic and did not necessarily find that to be as effective because people kind of got hung up in the lack of at the end, just never bothered to experience the depth, whereas now we just put the depth at the sea level and say, okay, fine, can you experience the depth with with with help?

Because eventually, eventually you do become independent, really do like I mean, most everybody does to some degree. And my perspective, again, for all the math teachers out there, regular ed math teachers out there, is that if you ask 90% of the adult population that are not engineers, if they remember much about how to do X, Y, or Z in algebra one, they're going to tell, you no, and that and if they could have done it before, they probably say, well, probably if I looked it up, I could figure it out.

And what you want is you want people to learn how to reconnect with material. That in itself is a big deal to be able to actually look something up to figure out how to do it. That is a skill that I think has more merit than necessarily memorizing a bunch of things that you'll forget. Tomorrow,

Arthur: I’m going to start using that in my everyday life, to reconnect to the material. That is perfect.

And that's so true. It's like if I see something, you see it on the Internet all the time. They have those math equations that you're remembering the order of operation you do first. And it all comes back to you when you say it so that it's like, yeah, that's really so true and great for you to mention that.

Mary Rose:  I wouldn't say because Rachel's even better at this than I am because we, we tell everybody that here is this is the order with which you do things. You look at it and say, Do I know how to do this? And then if you say to yourself, self, No, I don't know how to do this the next thing that you do is you either if you, if you're using a computer, you look at an example that you might find on the computer or you go, because we have the students build what we call a resource notebook that has all of the information, not a notebook that they do work, it’s purely for resources.

And then we say if you try and get your notebook, because then they can look it up and it, it would be an example that they had actually worked on it. And you do that until you get to the point where I still can't do this. That's the point where you say, Can you give me a little bit of a verbal prompt?

Mary Rose: But you don't go for the verbal prompt first because that's really what the cheating part is, or not so much cheating, but that's where you're shortchanging yourself. But if you need the verbal prompt, that's okay. I mean, it's okay until you don't need it anymore. And that's what we're talking about in terms of being independent. It's independently being able to do something and it doesn't really matter what the something is, which is why this can be carried across all curriculums.

It’s not exclusive to a math curriculum. As a matter of fact, we aren't quite sure why we started in math anyway. It probably was better off in like, I don't know, history or something. Nobody in history was willing to give it a shot. So right. Oh, well, thank you both for this great conversation.

Arthur: It’s been really great to hear how you're doing things there in your in your classroom and the fact that you two have been working together for so long. I'm sure that that always helps with, you know, understanding and making things work and just the way that you have adapted your classroom to help all learners and make it beneficial.

And making math, I'm sure a little bit more fun for everybody because.

Definitely less stressful. I really appreciated that. And I was like, Wow, that that's cool that you can, you know, the flexibility I think is the really big message that I got from this conversation. And it's so important because it's we always like to think things are supposed to go one way, and it's okay. If it doesn't, we have to, you know, shift gears a little bit and we'll still make it work and the students will still learn, which is, you know, the goal of, you know, one of the goals of of everything.

So thank you both for this great conversation and taking the time again. Yes.

Arthur: So we all have a great day to see much things about you.

Bye bye.