Episode 13: What Does Inclusion Look Like?

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, I welcome my guest Jillian Reich. We discuss the benefits, the challenges, and the effectiveness of inclusion.

Episode Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works. 

On this episode, I welcome my guest Jillian Reich. Jillian is an inclusion facilitator and an adjunct professor at Montclair State University in the School of Secondary and Special Education. We discuss the benefits, the challenges, and the effectiveness of inclusion. 

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and today I am speaking with Jillian, who is an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE.

So Jillian, thank you for joining us on the show today. We're happy to have you. 

Jillian: Thank you so much for having me. 

Arthur: Yes. So could you tell us a little bit about who you are, and I ask our guests to share one fun thing that you like to do in their free time.

Okay, sure. So my name is Jillian Reich. I am an inclusion facilitator, as well as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University in the School of Secondary and Special Education. I historically am a school teacher starting in New York City as a school teacher for about a decade and then an instructional leader. 

Something I do in my spare time for fun. Well, I like running, walking, biking, swimming, all those kinds of things. So I like to do kind of active things for fun. Taking up Pickleball this summer, I'm going to take my first surf lesson in a week, so I like to keep moving.

Arthur: Oh, that's fantastic. I have, um, I've shared with other guests that I was born with a disability, and there is an accessible and inclusive surf. I believe they're nonprofit and they travel the country on the shorelines and they host different events for people with disabilities to learn how to surf and things like that. So I'm planning on doing that this year. 

Jillian: Yes. Good. And that's a great goal. 

Arthur: Yes. So to start off the conversation, can you tell us how you became interested in inclusive education?

Jillian: Certainly. I began my career as an educator as a second or third career kind of for myself in my twenties, and I did so through the New York City teaching fellows. So this is a program where the city finds applicants who would like to have their graduate school and teacher training paid for but in turn will provide instruction to students in high-need areas. So of course, the high-need areas involve mostly mathematics, science, and special education where they really needed teachers. This program still exists, I believe, but in my case I was assigned to a special education school where actually it was a separate location school and all the students in the building were special needs students. 

I had a great experience there because I had wonderful leadership. I learned a lot, but I did see that there was this need for inclusion because these students in the segregated environment were showing kind of what the research tells us about maybe perpetuating certain behaviors or not having models that might be available in the inclusive environment. So in after a long stretch there and learning and reading, I really came to understand how important inclusive education could be for so many students. 

With my work with Montclair State University, I've been able to really gain new information and insights from not only research and so on, but being in schools and being part of inclusive classrooms I've seen such success in. 

Arthur: Yeah. I think that has been a very common thing among our guests where they say they've had the experience of being in the classroom to see inclusive education settings and to see them at work. And that has really opened their eyes to the possibilities of how it can work and what it's capable of doing and all of the positive things that come out of it. So that's a really great how it is a common theme among the guests that I've had recently on the podcast. 

Arthur: Can you define inclusive education and tell us what it means to you? 

Jillian: Yeah, I think about it in two ways.

I think inclusive education can be defined through the lens of maybe the learner or the student. And in this way, I would say inclusive education is really about meeting the needs of all learners in an environment with high expectations, yet flexible curricula.

But I think there's a deeper meaning, so I've been reflecting a lot and reading a lot about why we really have school. And it's these kinds of questions you go through life, we stop and really think that it really challenged my own thoughts about why do we have schools and what is the purpose or what are we expecting them to provide families and students? 

Jillian:  I think—so this is kind of the second layer of my definition—there's that first instructional student layer, but then I think there's a wider community definition for inclusion, which really has to do with this notion of creating citizens. We're going to be part of this diverse community. And it's sort of to me, an inclusive classroom is sort of like a training ground for that citizenship. So, yes, there is the day to day instructional, inclusive definition, which would be meeting the needs of all the learners in this kind of flexible but high expectation way. Then there's also the definition of inclusion, which really is about perpetuating citizenship among a diverse community or a diverse society. So I think it's sort of there's a smaller and a bigger way to look at it.

But for me, both of those are part of the definition. 

Arthur: Yes, I’m glad you brought in both of those definitions because it is very true and certainly the way that, we expect people to operate in the world at large.

When you said, it's a very diverse community. that's a great first place to learn is and it's full of how to see people who are different then you are and how to learn about those differences and educate yourself about those differences. 

Jillian: I think that's yeah, and I think it's it's a lot of that like really being able to say, I appreciate and I value all these different people around me, but it's also like a really good muscle memory in a way, because what happens as we grow and we guess, okay, college and career, this part of what schools are doing, right, they're preparing us for college and career. But we hear from employers all the time that we need to be collaborative, we need to problem solve, we need to work with all sorts of people.

So it's not only this social-emotional piece of work that's really great and I value everybody. It's also that, I'm better at or I'm creating students who are better at collaboration and better at figuring out how to how to work together in a way that maybe they're not used to.

Jillian: So I think that yeah, what you're saying is right on for sure. Yes. 

Arthur: Those are the again, like you said, those are the skills that they want us to bring into the workforce as we get older. And there's you know, it's a great way to start them, start the students early in school so that they are prepared with working with other diverse individuals. 

Arthur: Can you share with us some of the pieces of an inclusive classroom and what an inclusive classroom would look like to you? 

Jillian Sure. I think that there are probably a couple of angles to look at this.

So if you were to walk into an inclusive classroom, what would that overtly look like? I think you probably see really in a well-executed intensive classroom, you'd see purpose-driven instruction to clear purpose as well as varied learning activities, attention to different modes of learning, the principles of universal design for learning in place as well as differentiation. You would see these things when you walk in so you'd notice students moving from one thing to another. You'd notice talking, listening, creating all these different modes of expression and whatnot.

I think if you were to also be lucky enough to see that classroom maybe behind the scenes or over a trajectory of time, you would also notice a few really important things about an inclusive classroom, which I guess number one would be dedication to assessments.

So I think you would see teachers who are really committed to ensuring that their practices are working and constantly, whether it's informally, or formally, assessing and evaluating and refining what they're doing every day. So I think that's a part you might not see right when you walk in a room, but it should be happening behind the scenes.

I also think you should, if you're able again to see this classroom over time, see a lot of flexible grouping. So you're noticing Tuesday, these guys are working together; Friday, these guys are working together and it's always evolving and changing.

So sometimes at first glance, you might not notice these things, but if you're able to really see a classroom perform over time, you start noticing the commitment to things like assessment and flexible grouping; pivoting and shifting and refining what we're doing based on what we're getting back from students.

I think you'd also see some individualized notions, such as feedback that's kind of personal. Maybe some ways that we vary the activities that look different from student to student, that really respond to their needs. So some of that individualization too, but in a very natural kind of organic way so that, again, from day to day, it may look different, but it's there.

Arthur: Can you share with us some of the challenges that are associated with inclusive education? 

Jillian: Yeah, for sure. I think that that's so wise because sometimes we ignore when we know there's going to be challenges, and what good is that, right? 

We have to try to solve these problems. So, there are varied challenges. I think one thing is really just training our professionals to excel at this and to continue to grow as inclusive educators.

So I think there is a challenge with for some schools or some staff, maybe just a knowledge base. Not every teacher was trained in how to do these things and may need that support. I think there's perhaps when you ask a teacher, I've worked with teachers for many, many years as a coach, as a facilitator, and so on. Time is always an issue, right? Teachers have an enormous amount of work. They are so important and they are so inundated because they care so much and they want to do well. So they feel like they don't have enough time and time is always precious for them.

So I think there is, as part of a cultural response in a school, an issue with enough time to plan, to prepare, to reflect on assessments and so on. I also believe that there is, with in regards to time, a challenge in, like I said, this cultural shift, working smarter, not harder.

So I think we tend to, as educators want so badly to affect change. And we're working so hard to do that. But perhaps there's a new way to look at something we're doing and maybe allow us to work in a way that's more effective without being overworked or not having enough time.

So there are probably some things we can do to help our teachers do that better. In that same vein, there are a couple of other cultural things that I think are challenges. I think there is a rigidity to the way we do things as humans, right?

Jillian: So we tend to do things. I think there is some research, some psychology behind this. Like when we are asked to change or to amend something we're doing, we resist that because maybe we're afraid we're going to lose something of value, we’re not sure it's going to work, whatever the case might be. So I think there's like a little bit of work to be done there in terms of the culture in a school to kind of really embrace that sort of change or new learning.

Jillian: As well. If we're talking about inclusive education, another thing that might happen in schools, which we do see as facilitators a lot, is that the idea of inclusion often relies on staff working together and faculty coming together and teachers either being called teaching or teachers or collaborating, and sometimes developing those partnerships is not honored enough. 

Jillian: So I think about baseball, and when you have spring training, who are the first people that go to spring training? Pitchers and catchers, right? So I don't know if we really know why, but I think that they do that because maybe somebody knows. I don't know. I like baseball, but it's not about baseball. But perhaps they do that because these two people and these groups of people have to be collaborative and have to have a strong basis, a relationship in order to work together.

So they physically start before the rest of the team starts because it's so important that they're a partnership. So I think that's another challenge. We don't always honor that enough in our in our inclusive environments. And that's a challenge I think we could overcome trying to really treat those relationships with the care they need. 

Arthur: I love the baseball analogy. That was good. That was really great. It's something like you said, why do they do that? Like, we all know it. 

But then it is I think it is exactly what you said because they do have to, the pitcher in the catcher have to really get each other and understand each other and what the signals are and all of that to make a successful team, to start as the basis of that team, to make sure the other team doesn't get hits and stuff. So. Yeah, that was really good. 

Jillian, That’s true. And you say the signals, that analogy can kind of go on, right? Like they know the signals they kind of know each other that it is very much like that same kind of a partnership of perhaps what might be a co-teacher or a collaborative approach. 

Arthur: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is a great analogy. 

Arthur: So on the flip side of that, can you share with us some of the benefits that you've seen in inclusive education?

Jillian: Yeah, I think this relates—to answer this—kind of relates back to the earlier definition that I think about and that again, this kind of global or universal benefit is that we are creating citizens of a community with all different people.

And that, of course, is the far-reaching, really important benefit. But we know from research that there's also just academic benefits. Widely, students with IEPs perform better in inclusive classes than not. And we know that there are some examples of that as well with students who do not have IEPs still showing academic gains within an inclusive classroom. So I think that there's a little more room for research in that area to be great, to keep learning more about how students who are in an inclusive environment as general education students are growing. I think that's really, I would love to keep reading more about that, learning more about that. I think we have a way to go to learn more about that. And in particular, because sometimes those people shift, Right? 

So while the student with an IP may remain in the classroom over years, that's not always true for the student without so perhaps learning more. I think there's a lot of room to learn about that and from what we see so far, we know that those students perform well academically in inclusive classrooms.

So again, on the day-to-day and the immediate output, there are benefits academically, and then why do we have this benefit of creating the kind of world we want to live in? 

Arthur: Yeah, that's I always love those two questions of the challenges and the benefits to see what everybody's answers are. And I just love them because there are challenges like accent where just about everything we do and you know, but there are ways to get around them and the benefits, the positives always outweigh the negatives and the challenges. So that's really great to hear firsthand. 

Jillian: They’re so big, right? The benefits are so large and the challenges are like little things. You're going to check and fix and check effects, but the benefits of these big heavy-duty things, and I think even selfishly as an educator, I think there's a lot of benefits to the teacher, him or herself, because when you're in an environment where you are really tasked with teaching to a wide group of learners, you become such a better teacher. So I think there's a lot of benefit to the educator themselves because they're going to just grow and progress as an educator, whereas if they were in a very homogeneous environment, there's not that kind of growth always. So I think we also really get benefit beyond, you know, beyond the students and their learning. I think we get we grow a lot, too. 

Arthur: Yeah. And I like what you said originally with when I asked about the challenges that, you know, we know the challenges are there, but we have to acknowledge them. We have to say what they are, and, that's how we are able to fix them and get through them and work through them by identifying what they are. So that's really important key, key piece there. 

Arthur: So to conclude this conversation, I have just one more question, and that is, what is one thing that you feel can be done in every school to improve inclusive education? 

Jillian: There’s so many like quick moves I think we can make to make small movements in inclusive education, and I do talk about those a lot when I work with schools, and there is a place for that. But when I reflect on maybe somewhere where I can generalize, where there's a lot of room for improvement, I might actually zero in on teacher evaluations as a place where we could really help grow inclusive practice.

So I think, you know, we know that organizations that operate as collaborative, problem solving places do better. We know that schools that do better. So, for instance, schools that say we have an issue with reading in our school or reading scores are really low and they work with every educator to make them teachers of reading. They do better. So the drama teacher, the music. Everybody's a teacher of reading and they really grow that practice because they're solving that problem, but we have to help our reading source.

Same idea here. If we have a school that says we're collaborative this out in school, our problem right now is that our education is not inclusive enough or our practice needs to grow. Then that should be the focus and through teacher evaluations, grow that practice.

So when you look at a lot of teacher evaluations, there's some language about differentiation maybe, maybe about are all learners kind of like are you mixing learning activities and varying things in that way? But I don't know that there's that many examples of schools that do a really good job using the teacher evaluation as a place to really discuss inclusive education.

Jillian: So I'm not talking about a teacher evaluation that's punitive or meant to even reward for more as an end goal or a purpose. Just like what we do with our students, we set an objective.

It should be clear. They should know what they should say it they should. We say it. Same with the teachers. What is my objective as a teacher in this school? Here are some things on the evaluation and these are our talking points.

We're going to focus a lot on inclusive practice. I also think that teacher evaluations should be written in a way or modified based on maybe where that teacher is. So if I'm a brand new teacher and I've had no training in inclusive practice, maybe my evaluation that I'm kind of marked on looks a little different, and it's kind of the beginning that nascent stage of inclusive practice. But if I'm a teacher who has taught inclusive for years, I have special education background, whatever the case is, maybe I'm on the higher side of that spectrum, my evaluation demands a little more of me, so everybody keeps moving. 

So I think that's just like a place in my mind. I think schools could do better. There could be a better feeling around evaluations that they're really about conversation and growth, and they can focus more on inclusive practices that maybe many of them do at the moment. 

Jillian: That would be my one thing. But I have more. 

Arthur: Thank you for your time today and for your knowledge and the pieces of education that you've provided for this conversation, and a part of us doing our part in raising awareness about inclusive education.

I really enjoyed our conversation today, and I thank you for your time. 

Jillian: Thank you so much. It was so nice talking with you. 

Arthur: It was nice talking with you as well. And have a good day.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube or Spotify and to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.