Episode 12: Inclusive Education: Re-Imagining the School Psychologist

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, My guests are Barry Barbarasch, Kristine Esposito, and Sol Heckelman. In our discussion we take on the topic of re-imagining the school psychologist. 

Episode Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works. On this episode, I welcome my guests Barry Barbarasch, Kristine Esposito, and Sol Heckelman.

They are three members of the New Jersey Association for School Psychologists, and we discuss the role of school psychologists as it relates to inclusive education. 

I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast.

I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I'm here today with three guests. This is my first time hosting a show with three guests, so we have Sol Heckelman, Barry Barbarasch, and Kristine Esposito. So thank you all for joining me today on this episode.

I would like for each of you to introduce yourselves and give a little bit of background about who you are and what you do. Just to add that we'll start with Kristine, go to Barry, and then to Sol. 

Kristine: I’m Kristine Esposito. I'm a school psychologist. I currently work in Philadelphia. I previously worked in New Jersey for several years in various districts, and I'm currently the president-elect for the New Jersey Association of School Psychologists. 

Barry: Barry Barbarasch, I was, I still am a school psychologist. I worked in schools in New Jersey and New York for many years. I'm an adjunct professor at Rowan University, including supervising practicum students, and I also teach at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine in their school psychology doctoral program, and I'm a past president of the New Jersey Association of School Psychologists.

Sol: Sol Heckelman, I am a school psychologist, and I was the director of special services in a number of districts all over, and I'm retired now, but I still keep my hand in and I kind of bother folks a lot just about how things are and how they should be. I'm also a past president of the Association, and I also was a past chair of the state's Special Education Advisory Council. So well, that's basically who I am. 

Arthur: I would like to start the conversation by discussing a recent white paper that was recently presented that talked about moving on from the discrepancy model to a tiered intervention model for classification purposes. Can you give us the background on how New Jersey works now, why this is important to change, and what change would actually be.

Barry: Well, I can get started if you like. 

Arthur: Yes, that would be great, Barry.

Barry:  and please, you guys jump in. Just a little bit of history from IDEA. IDEA allows for three ways of determining whether a child has a learning disability.

One: Is it an academic intelligence discrepancy? Second, is a response to intervention, and the third is any alternative research-based procedure. That's IDEA. That's federal law. New Jersey allows for the discrepancy. It's required to allow for the response to intervention, but that it does not provide for any third alternative research-based method.

The problem is that the discrepancy model that's described in IDEA has really been shown through research to be invalid, and actually does harm to children by denying them services until a discrepancy, an undefined discrepancy arises, which often by the time that takes place, the child might be several years since they were first seen as having difficulties, which makes it more difficult to provide them with services. So our bill, what our bill would do, is eliminate this discrepancy, which legally we can do. Many states have done that already, and add in a third alternative research-based model, which many states have, but New Jersey doesn’t.

Sol:  All right, I’ll jump, and Barry that's a very nice framework of what exists and a specific problem with the discrepancy model, and Barry alluded to the fact that it's not valid scientifically, is that it seems to be a very “scientific” issue using numbers, and that's attractive to everybody. But there are several problems with that. and specifically, what is that when children are very, very young, it's very difficult to get a large discrepancy because of the nature of the numbers that you get with young children. 

More importantly, discrepancy depends very much on the particular instruments you use. And, for example, there are many districts that require what they say is a standard deviation and a half. Some say 16 points, some say 21, some say 23. So it's an arbitrary number to begin with, and then it depends upon which cognitive or intelligence measure you're using, which achievement measure you're using. So it's a very variable kind of thing.

Third is, and maybe most important, is that there are districts where the requirement, the policy is that unless a child shows a specific number at least of, let's say, 23 points, that they will not recognize that the child needs special services.

It's just required. To me, that means that that's the only valid, that’s the only criterion they're using, because unless the child gets that in that district, they won't allow it. So to us, that's number one, it's not only unethical, but it seems to be illegal in line with federal requirements.

What compounds this is in New Jersey, as we all know, is the home of home room, which means that every local board of education makes its own policy in this regard. So what then happens is in some districts, there is discrepancy and some and then too many, in some there's not.

There is a whole jumble of what's required and what's not required. So the long and short of it is that discrepancy is just a very misleading number and it serves no value that we can think of. The only “value” is that the child in the general education program in the regular class is not doing as well as the teacher feels he or she could do. OK, that's an issue. But if that was all there was, this discrepancy, then you would need to do any more testing or any more observation because the child has this discrepancy. So all the way around, it's just, it's the wrong thing to do. 

Kristine: I’m sure there are some psychologists who use that in my district, but most of us are actually trained on the third method and we try to use that as much as we can because we don't agree with discrepancy.

Most of us came from other districts where, as you guys were saying, it's a hard 23 points, and if they don't make that, you don't get services. And just one that one of the districts I worked in was that and we had several kids who were up for a reevaluation who previously were getting services all of a sudden, maybe the discrepancy was 22 points. Now they don't get services anymore. It's really unethical and it's not fair to these students. 

Barry: And quite honestly, it’s unnecessary because the law doesn't require children to be tested on a re-evaluation.

Kristine: That’s true. And some districts actually do make you test every three years. No, I was just going to say like, I think part of it is which I hate to say it, but part of it is the way to kind of keep their numbers low and special ed because they know that might happen. 

Barry: So you're left with a situation where a child, again, these numbers are all arbitrary. There is no, “number”. So districts create a number. So a child in first grade may have a 21 point discrepancy, and they're eligible for special education.

Three years later, they're tested. Well, now they have an 18 point discrepancy, even though they still need the services, the services have been taken from them.

Kristine: Exactly. And then what ends up happening too is then they're referred again. Probably the next year they're back in the gen-ed curriculum and now they're referred and we have to reevaluate again.

So it's- and then they're missing out on that specialized instruction that they were receiving this free for all those years and that- it's just it really does create quite a mess. And it's a shame for the students at the end of the day. 

Barry: It’s harmful to them. Well, that’s really been the impetus for our bill that was in the Senate, in the Assembly, to do away with the discrepancy. And to add in the option of a third alternative research-based method, which IDEA does allow for.

Kristine: And I think one more thing, if you don't mind me just jumping in. 

Barry: No, please.

Kristine: I think like a lot of times, people look at that hard number because it holds up legally with a lot of attorneys, and that's one thing that we do see in my district being a larger district.

You know, it's like, ‘Well, what's the number?’ They're always looking at the numbers for everything. And, you know, students are not numbers. Every child is an individual child. They have unique learning experiences. And if you're going to defend anything legally, as long as you do a comprehensive assessment and you could defend your reasoning as to why the student needs these particular services, it's going to hold up in court. I mean, that's always been my experience. 

Barry: I agree. 

Sol: Yeah. And I think what Kristine was saying is going to leads into something which to us is even more important, which is the whole value, or lack thereof, of the testing for special education and the emphasis on that. There are children who need a very unique kind of small group kind of setting for their particular needs. But the question is, how do you know who these children are? And what do you do for them so that they might not have to be in separate settings, but they could be taught in the regular program, and so another aspect that we want to emphasize as school psychologists and also for learning consultants, for that matter, is that the major efforts should be on how to work with these children, whether they have a “disability” or “special needs” or not in the regular setting, to the extent

that it's productive for them, for the children, and so there are various labels for those practices. One is a multilevel, multi-tiered system of support for New Jersey tiered system of support.

Barry: I think they've done away with that term, by the way, what I'm seeing is that MTSS. 

Sol: OK, so what that simply means in ordinary language, which is that you do whatever you can within the respect to the curriculum and the instructional techniques that a teacher has to work with the child.

That is Kristine was saying before, it's not the numbers, it's the individual children. So every child has his or her own learning style as his or her thing that they do well and that's what you just focus on. And in fact, what we would like to do is to get away from the emphasis on what the child can’t do, but what is it that a child can do and how can we the teacher, the other staff in the school. How can we capitalize on the strengths of the child? 

We all have disabilities. Some of us, more than others. some of my best friends, but what we all do, is we try to work around that. We try to capitalize on the strengths we have. Some of us have more strengths than other folks have, and so that should be the focus for everybody.

If it turns out, then, that all of the efforts that are made and all of the special techniques that are used in general ed are really just not sufficient for that child, then you begin to think of special education.

But the goal would be to keep the child functioning at his or her best ability within the general education program. And then the label if you need to put a label on, in order to get something special. Well, OK.

But that's not really what we're aiming at to start with. 

Arthur: Such great answers from all of you to give a great understanding of what things are like and where you're aiming to take them, so thank you all for those great explanations. 

For our next question, it’s something that has been present in all of our lives with the pandemic going on, and I think we had all hoped for and anticipated for a COVID free school year for 2021 and 2022 and that everyone would be in some sort of mental recovery process by now from the pandemic.

Can you explain to us what is actually happening in the schools and how are school psychologists working to deal with this trauma with the students? 

Barry: Well, I know in the schools and there is literature on it every day about how it's not just kids, it's teachers as well, and the issue of mental health is probably the predominant issue in education today as it applies to the pandemic.

We have kids coming back to school. There was something on the news a couple of weeks ago that there are 140,000 kids have come back to school having either a parent or a primary caretaker dying, and to compound things of that number, 60% are kids from minority populations. So that just makes it that much more. Kids from minority populations, low SES, always bear the brunt of this. But I know in the schools they're seeing a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, and that involves the teachers as well as the students. And so that's a lot of what's going on now. Kristine, I don’t know if you see any of that with the kids.

Kristine: Absolutely. Students and teachers, I think it's mental health for everyone. 

It's actually kind of funny, I was just talking to one of my colleagues the other day because we thought last year was very challenging, but this year, I feel it is actually worse. I think everyone's, just this year, we've had difficulties with, not just with mental health, but just like transportation sometimes, and then people are getting COVID still. So then they're going out and some people are virtual, and some schools are not virtual like parents aren't sure what to do until the night before because we might find out that a school is going virtual the next day.

It's just kind of still all over the place. At the moment, currently, we have half of our district is virtual, half is not. We have to find out the night before whether or not they're going to be.

And a lot of staff members are out because they're getting COVID and then we can't find anybody to fill that position because we can't get substitute teachers to come in. So we have some of us, the psychologists are going in to try to help with the classes. We have people from like administration coming in and it's just…And then again, I think the worst part of it is the mental health, across the board for everybody. 

We're just seeing so many kids, even like first graders, are just anxious. They feel like they can't keep up. They missed out on some of that instruction from kindergarten. The other part of it, social skills, it's just kind of getting everybody acclimated back to being in the classroom. That was difficult, too.

So it's definitely been a challenging year. 

Barry: And it's not necessarily getting a whole lot better at this point. Right?

Kristine: I mean, again, it started to felt like almost like you saw a little glimmer of hope, right?

And then we had this variant come through, and I think since the middle of December, it's just been going like that, where people are closing- not people, the schools are closing.

So like students, the staff members have to come in, but then some of the staff members are out. It's just, it's been a lot.

Barry: To say the least. 

Kristine: Yeah.

Sol: So that's a great way to frame the issue. So one question that comes up is, so what do we do about that? And we have to recognize, number one, that there are limits that what we try to do is going to take a lot of effort and a lot of patience.

But I think in a sense, it's the kind of thing that we should ordinarily be doing, except there is much more pressure at this point. For example, ordinarily schools, and a good part of the school psychologist time and social workers should be working with staff and with children and with the parents for that matter, in terms of again, focusing on how they feel about themselves, how they feel about the tasks that they're faced with, about the stresses and try to capitalize again from a mental health point of view of what their strengths are, and what how they can feel good about themselves, how they can feel comfortable in tackling the academic issues, the relationships with other kids. 

This is true all the time. It's emphasized right now because of the concerns that Kristine and Barry have raised. And you can throw all kinds of extra math and language arts and science classes at the kids in order to try to boost them up for the state testing that comes along, but if they're not put together, so to speak, and they're not functioning well as individual people, then all that extra academic stuff is not going to do very much for them. What they need is to feel more comfortable with themselves, to feel that they can tackle issues that come up.

Very often, some people can do that on their own. But all too often, people need that extra counseling, if you will, or that extra chance to look at themselves and understand what their capabilities really are, and then they can go ahead and use their own abilities to the maximum.

Barry: I think one of the issues is: are the schools, is the school, as a system, set up to address things like this? And my sense is that everybody's been caught by surprise. One of the things that we're looking to do in conjunction with some other associations is work together to see how can we address the mental health issues for the kids and the families? Because I don't know if the schools are necessarily systemically set up to address say something like a pandemic and how it impacts kids' mental health and frankly, the teachers’ mental health also.

I know someone who is a speech therapist and she goes in a half a day, but she doesn't know from day to day which kids she's going to see in person, which kids are going to be online, when she's going to see them. And it's extremely stressful for her, and I know other teachers are experiencing the same thing, but the schools I don't know, systemically, are set up to address those kinds of issues. And I think that's what needs to happen is taking like a big picture look also at it and saying what can the schools do systemically to address the needs of the kids and the needs of the teachers. Sometimes we forget about the teachers. But they're experiencing the same thing, 

Barry: Kristine, have you seen that as well?

Kristine: Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree, and again, back to the mental health piece, a student, is not going to be available to learn if they're not there fully. I think that’s what Sol was saying.

You have to be mentally feeling good and available to learn it, actually able to retain those concepts and everything that they're learning. So, mental health across the board, I think, is key right now, and that's something that we need to be focusing more on.

But I think part of the problem too, though, is because, my personal experience seems to be like the districts are getting a lot of pressure to “recover” from what was lost academically.

But again, we can't push that so much if there's still so much trauma and everything from the pandemic. So we really have to focus on the mental health, making sure everybody's feeling safe and is available to learn before we can actually start focusing on that.

Kids are pretty resilient, I think, as far as gaining those skills back, once we start, being able to get to that point where we could be great. If you're going to just start kind of forcing that and pushing that immediately, you're going to shut down a little bit because we still need to focus on that mental health piece. 

Barry: Well, it just makes the problem worse now you have to deal with the pressure. You're really correct. 

Arthur: Yeah, and I think that's a great segue into our last question, which is: if we were to reimagine the role of the school psychologist for inclusive schools, what would that look like, and what would be different from the way that it is now? 

Barry: Well, well, if we're going to re-imagine it, I like to do things like that. I had conversations with Sol about, you know, if you had $1,000,000, what would you do?

I think for school psychologists, the idea that the primary role of the school psychologist is to be a gatekeeper of the special education needs to go. I know I wasn't trained to do that. We're trained to do is provide an array of services to all children, including kids with disorders, disabilities, whatever word, whatever the word of the day is, but to provide for the needs of all children because, to me, learning is on a continuum. It's not like, you have this score, so you have this disability and you have that scores so you don’t. That’s not true at all. It's on a continuum. And so we should be providing services that reflect that continuum. That's where the multi-tiered of support, makes so much sense. But I think if I'm going to reimagine my role, my role would have been to be this school psychologist for all the children, which may involve; reshaping how many school psychologists there are, reshaping how services are provided? But to me, that's what needs to happen. And that's really not the question. Kristine, you can speak to this maybe better than I can at this point.

But in my time, my primary role was to be the…to classify kids to do re-evaluations. That should not be the should that's that needs to be some of it, but it shouldn't be predominant. It should be a part of a much larger role. 

Sol: Yeah, to pick up on that in a variety of ways. Again I’d say Barry phrased that very well. I think what we have to do, and all of us, we have to rethink how we approach the whole idea of “education” or “formal education” in the schools. And we have to look at the kids not as what category they're in or may be in, and whether it's special ed or not. But as individual functioning people, as individuals, with their own style. 

We have to think of the school as everything in society, as a dynamic, it's not just there's this kid who has this particular problem. So it's the medical model, which is this kid is carrying a disease around with him. So let's find out what the cause of that disease is, and then let's either cure it, which is impossible in many practical ways, or let's put him or her aside in some special setting, and so they won't be contaminating the other kids in the regular classes, and let teacher work with the other kids who don't take as much time. That's totally wrong. We're not always aware of the fact that we're really doing that. What we need to do is to look at the dynamics of the school.

The school is a social setting. Everybody has interactions with many other people. Everybody has their own needs and thoughts that they bring to things. So social relationships are extremely important. A child may do better with one teacher than another teacher.

Not that the teacher is better or not as good, but it's simply, that teacher just picks up on the chemistry, so to speak, with that particular child. The children, there’s an interaction, so if a school psychologist is in a school and gets the sense of, well, ‘these people work well together, this particular teacher works better with that teacher. These particular children function better in this kind of a setting,’ the psychologist is in a position to capitalize on that and to make suggestions or to work with the teachers in terms of capitalizing on their strengths and their particular ways of instruction.

We all have our own ways as teachers to do instruction, as school psychologists, as interviewers, to pick up on particular aspects of what we're doing, and we're not always aware of that. So one way is to become more aware of ourselves, by the way, social-emotional learning, which we're all aware of these days, I think, is very much the idea of being aware of your own emotions and how they're functioning and what you're doing to capitalize on them in a productive way and not to be afraid of the emotions, but to recognize that we're all emotional in many ways.

So that's a long-winded way of saying that the school psychologist, if they have the time and the opportunity to work with everyone, staff, as Barry says, as well as children, that that's what we should be doing. 

And by the way, just to throw this in, not every school psychologist is great at everything. We like to think we're pretty good, but it depends on your training and it depends upon your own interest and your own motivations. So some psychologists will be terrific at counseling and group dynamics and so on. Some will be excellent at investigating particular learning styles of kids, and what the dynamics are, their particular ways of learning. So it's a variety of things. But in general, that's where we should be.

Arthur: Kristine, did you have anything to add to that?

Kristine: I think they covered a lot of it.

I was just going to say, I think for me, my role kind of changed a little bit as a school psychologist, depending on the district I worked in as well. Like in a larger system, it was almost kind of like, stay in your lane and this is what you do. Kind of what Barry was saying that you're the gatekeeper for special education. Sometimes in smaller districts, you could get more involved with doing some counseling. I used to do a social skills group with preschoolers and kindergartners.

So, if I could re-imagine what my role would be, it would be getting more involved like they were saying, you know, with stuff, with MTSS with counseling. I love doing that. And I think right now, mental health and social-emotional learning is such a big push, and I think that's kind of where we should be working more, not just doing evaluations and determining whether or not a student needs special education. 

Arthur: Thank you all for this conversation. This is a great conversation with you all.

I appreciate you taking out the time from your busy schedules to participate in this conversation today. Thank you all again for your time today and enjoy your day and the weekend.

Barry: Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thanks. 

Arthur: Have a good day. 

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube or Spotify and to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.