Episode 28: Rising to the Occasion

On this episode of the podcast, I welcome my guest Dr. Teresa Herrero-Taylor. Teresa is the Director of Special Services In Jackson New Jersey. During our conversation, we discuss the challenges and barriers of inclusion from a statewide perspective, and also how schools can support parents who believe that separate placement is better for their children who have disabilities.

Transcript

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am back with a brand new episode with my guest today, Dr. Teresa Herrero-Taylor. Teresa, I'm very happy that you are joining me today.

We had a great pre-conversation before we started recording, so I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Teresa: Thank you for inviting me and I'm honored that I was selected to be interviewed.

Arthur: Yes, you're welcome. And to begin our conversation, can you share a little bit about yourself with our audience? Can you share with us who you are?

And also tell us how you became interested in the inclusive education world.

Teresa: Absolutely. I'm a lot of different things. Wife, I'm a mother of three individuals with disabilities who are now young adults. One is profoundly disabled, intellectually disabled, and autistic. The other two are what you call twice exceptional, so quite bright and gifted, but have their own share of disabilities themselves that they have to contend with.

I'm also a licensed psychologist. I am a board-certified behavior analyst. I was a school psychologist for many years. I'm now in the director of special services in Jackson. I do believe that helping individuals with disabilities is my calling. It's not a job for me. It's absolutely a passion. And it's something that, I was already in the field when I became a parent and I didn't feel like it was by accident.

I felt that I was probably mediocre before that and being a parent and actually living with disabilities, creating opportunities for them was what I was meant to do. So, filling into this role, a lot of people will say, Don't you want to be in another? No, I'm exactly where I was meant to be. That was meant to be a director of special services.

Teresa: I do subscribe to the philosophy that there shouldn't be limitations on individuals and that they can always do more. Right. And, one of the things I always told teachers is how do you know if you haven't tried? How do they know if they haven't tried that we shouldn’t

put limits and parameters on what they do and what they can do.

So and time and time again, students continue to surprise me, right? No one has a crystal ball to make those kind of predictions. And so it would really be it's just not the way I am. I'm an empowerment person. I believe in the ability to help people reach whatever lengths that they can and certainly want to and even perhaps even exceed those, because sometimes those are self-fulfilling prophecies or those low expectations sometimes get internalized.

So it is always about pushing forward and really empowering people to go as far as they can.

Arthur: Yes, I love what you said how do you know if you don't try and the limitations me myself, having a disability. And I just answered this question on one of my social media sites where someone asked, how can they be a better ally for people with disabilities?

And, I said by simply not making assumptions about their abilities

Teresa: Arthur, when my son was 16, I was at an IEP meeting. This is my profoundly challenged son. And I said I'd like you to teach him how to tie his shoes. And they all looked at me like, But he can’t tie his shoes, he’ll never tie his shoes.

And I said the same thing. How do you know if you've never tried? No one has ever taught him. They just say, have him use Velcro right? Why teach him? I said, but no one's ever even tried to teach him.

Teresa: Now, this is a child who can't read or write it. Can't even hold a pencil, and within one month, he was tying his shoes. So and that's kind of my point. It doesn't mean that everything, but unless you've tried, you don't know how far they can go or what they can do. Right. Keep surprise you all the time. Right. I mean, you certainly in your story, right, surprised people, too. And you exceeded what people initially thought.

So I think that has to be really a framework that people use overall for all of our students. Right. That we have to keep trying and,, and trying different methods to keep it learn the traditional method. I think he used or bright orange laces and there were some adaptations to it. But ultimately he learned to tie his shoelaces with regular laces.

Arthur: Mm-hmm.

Teresa: And that increases independence, right?

Arthur: Absolutely. Yeah. That reminds me of a story. I was out of the theater with friends, and I was using my crutches and the usher at the theater, our seats were upstairs, and the theater's old, so it didn't have an elevator. And the usher said, Oh, he can't. He can't climb those steps.

And my friend said, First of all, you don't know him, and if he can't climb those steps, let him be the one to say he can't climb the steps! You don't know him. She said, because I've known him a long time and I don't know if he can climb those steps, but if he wants to try, we'll get him up there.

We'll make it happen. So it's just really not making assumptions and always just trying and seeing what can be done, and, we'll be surprised.

Teresa: The capacity to grow. I mean, I think in my background, having started my education as an English language learner, being placed in all the little groups like a somehow that was telling me that I couldn’t, right? and then really took someone believing in me and saying, Oh, but I think you can.

And then to really push that standard higher that I then internalized and then rose to that level. So I think people have to really be mindful of how much we also perpetuate that type of setting the bar low, keeping the bar low. Are we really giving students opportunities to really go as far as they can or perhaps further, rising to the occasion?

So and that's what inclusive education is really about, isn't it?

Arthur: Yes.

Teresa: It kind of fits in with that. The philosophy and really the federal and state mandate. Also, it's not like we just make this up and just like it just because it's also what we're supposed to be doing. But there are a lot of ways that we help to push that forward.

You know, sometimes it's those implicit biases that we don't mean, but are there that sometimes affect the work and affect the mindset also in negative ways?

Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And speaking of the state and requirements and things like that, can you share with us some of the barriers from a statewide perspective to fostering inclusive practices?

Teresa: I'm going to tell you that in Jackson, really primary barrier that the state is created is financial.

We are an S-2 district. I don't know if you're familiar with what that means. We have faced very dramatic cuts in our budget every year, millions, which obviously means a loss of teachers, interventionists, and specialists to support students in general education. Large class sizes. So all of these things obviously don't make the work in general education, supporting students with disabilities or English language learners.

It makes it really strained. Original S-2 was created at a time when our society was different. It was a different time of education. There were different needs. This was all before COVID. And now we look at COVID and we have a lot more students with behavioral challenges, emotional challenges. Certainly, the stress levels of staff, I mean, all these different pieces come into the mix, which is making these cuts that much more dramatic and impactful on a district like Jackson.

We are not the only S-2 cut district, Arthur, just so you're aware there are other ones, but it was really done pre-everything sort of becoming worse educationally in terms of student needs coupled with increases in English language learners. So that from the state is a huge barrier. In addition to that, I would say just, change is hard.

Teresa: And I think change, especially post-COVID, is harder, right, because of all the challenges. I think parents also are feeling stress and there's a general mindset around inclusive education, too, that I think is always something that throughout the state and including Jackson, that we can have to continue to support a mindset that embraces inclusion and that could be with educators, it could be with parents across the board.

So those are certainly some of the barriers that Jackson specifically, but I think throughout the state in general that are challenges.

Arthur: Yes, and we’re kind of talking about this already, but are there rules or requirements that the state puts in place, that also make it difficult as it relates to inclusive education?

Teresa: I think the legal process, the way it's set up, makes it hard. I'm one when I believe something is right for the student, I want to go forward and fight for it because it's the right thing for the student. But when you go through a legal process, it's usually there's a lot of encouragement, is probably the best word. to settle, to settle, even if it's not the right thing for the student.

So that's hard, right? I'm a principal person. I want to do the right thing by kids. So settling for the sake of financial reasons as opposed to it's not the right thing is difficult. Right? I feel that's uncomfortable. So I think the way the legal process is set up is certainly not easy. The difficulty of providing services and accessing services in Gen-Ed, because of funding.

It does go hand-in-hand. That makes it hard. The state created that situation. And ultimately that's causing inequity in districts that have that differential in their state or state funding. Unfunded mandates, or only partially funded mandates of the state. That makes it hard. Because when that differentially impacts districts, that makes it that much more of a challenge to provide quality needed services for students, which is ultimately our goal.

The state is large. It has a lot of school districts, More than 600. I think with that, it makes it somehow, operationally, there are so many nuances across those districts that the blanket decision-making that sometimes happens is really differentially impacting certain districts in ways that are really inequitable for students.

Arthur: Yeah, that's a really great point to make that, you know, with so many districts you can't or it's it's difficult to apply one thing to all districts when so many different pieces apply for specific districts that is.

New Jersey looks small on the map, but we have a lot going on here. We have a lot of people.

Teresa: Yeah, a lot of people.

Arthur: A lot of townships and students and school districts

Teresa: And all separately trying the best that they can with the resources that they're given. And the resources are not the same.

Arthur: Right.

Teresa: So you talk about real differentials there. Equity, which is concerning. With all of us having the same goal of implementing the administrative code to the best of our ability, but certainly creates unique challenges, especially for a district like Jackson.

Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And then I would like to talk about the parents and the situation they have now you have students and then you have their parents.

And there are parents who strongly believe that separate placement is better for their children. How can we assist those parents in overcoming their reservations about this?

Teresa: Yeah, and I am a parent. So this is very interesting. I wear many hats and that's certainly another hat as being a parent of children with disabilities.

It is a tough process and there are different factors that sometimes impact parents and where they're at. Sometimes it's an understanding of their own child's needs or perhaps an acceptance of their child's needs. Sometimes that could be an impact. I do think it really starts with case managers and districts really actively listening to families about what are your concerns, not just dismissing them or disregarding them.

What is it that you're concerned about? Come to the table. They're active members of the IEP team. They have a voice. They're supposed to have a voice. Are we listening to them? What is it that they fear about perhaps more inclusion, more access to peers? What is it they feel that's better about these other placements?

Right. And a lot of it it's based on these perceptions, misconceptions. I always say the public schools suffer from a branding public relations weakness, that it just gets assumed that in district or public is worse. Unfortunately, I've had, or fortunately, I had the opportunities C many out of placements public schools are comparable, if not superior to out-of-district placements, the great majority of the time.

To add to that we have non-disabled peers. This is their community, this is where they live. These are the children that live in their neighborhoods. These are their potential friends, their potential future colleagues. This is where it's at in terms of being part of your community. And you can't get that in an out-of-district placement. They're usually far away, half an hour, 45 minutes.

Teresa: You’re going to make friendships in different towns. Jackson is a big place to travel, even just to go through. As you know, you lived here, if you hadn't had to travel to other towns to go connect with people, it's just really limiting. The beauty of having students in the district being with their peers, and being part of the fabric of the school.

Part of it is beautiful. Beautiful for students who don't have disabilities and beautiful for the students who do, at both levels, everyone grows and is a better place because of it. You can't get that at an out-of-district placement. That part is just lost. Not available.

In-district programs are longer. We are full day. Out-of-district placements are usually shorter, usually about 5 hours, five and a half hours, shorter school day. So on so many levels. And yet the requests come that somehow that that must be better. And that's really unfortunate. And most parents aren't aware they're not really comparing programs or understanding the differences. Ironically, Arthur, a lot of our special education teachers, many have come from out-of-district placements in the district.

So, we have people who have all that specialized knowledge they are here, but it just gets assumed somehow that this outer part is that our district is better. So actively listening, coming to understand what parents’ concerns and fears are, what the student needs are in the eyes of the parents addressing those, working collaboratively to understand how those can best be met, really offering those opportunities. It’s a process of gaining trust, really, of families that, this is a good place to be and your child is going to do well here. Really is striving to ensure high-quality programing for students.

Teresa: You can't just, say we're great and then not be great. Right? I mean, you have to actually, the IEP implementation has to be as promised, right? You have to do what you're supposed to do when you're going to do it and do it at a level of quality that certainly students make progress and progress that's meaningful.

So I think all of those have been strategies I've always used from when I was a supervisor of Special Ed or now as a director and even as a case manager. I think really this community piece and the value of that I think is sometimes undervalued. And when people see it in action, it just brings tears to my eyes and it is parents and sometimes it's staff.

It's really moving everyone forward to see how beautiful that could be. There's kids I brought in who people thought, Well, I'm not sure if they belong here. And in my eyes, all students belong here. They all belong here. They're all part of our community. There's no one. The only time is we just can't meet the need. Right? That would be the one exception.

But my question is always, why not? And we have to kind of go through and make sure that we are not just quickly saying we can't, but that we truly can't. Right. Which is honestly very rare in my eyes. But really kind of challenging those underlying assumptions, as you say, of why not?

Why can't we do that? And sometimes perhaps we want to say, they are too disabled, they can’t be there.

Teresa: Why not? I asked them that too. Why not? Well, he needs a nurse. We can get a nurse. Well, the hallway.the hallways are ADA-compliant, We have begun to see more students with visual impairments. The same type of thing. Why not? You don't have… We do have services. We do have we have those approaches.

We have the Commission for the blind. We have everything your child needs, and they're here. They're in their community. They're with their peers. Right? So it is a process. I think the district certainly you have to sometimes build those supports and services and programming sometimes Arthur, there’s actually shortages in certain specializations for support services that are sometimes a challenge, finding the right people.

Can we find the right people to support the needs in-district? But I try to be ahead of that and having people kind of on the ready who are ready to provide those services. So anyone who moves in that I have contacts or vendors approved ready to go to support the needs of anyone who might like that or who's here already.

Teresa: So the challenges are not insurmountable. I welcome parental collaboration and I welcome parents talking to each other. So sometimes some districts fear that the conversations I love the conversations. I'm a parent too. Parents learn from each other. Parents support each other. Being a parent of children with disabilities can be very isolating, especially the more disabled they are because they tend not to be able to venture out as much into the community or they think they can't.

So offering each other resources and support knowledge of events and different opportunities is is another beautiful thing around being a family with disabilities that when you can connect with others and feeling like you belong to your school, is that just expanding that community.

Arthur: Yeah, it's the collaboration and conversation so important.

Teresa: And I think honesty, like I said, anything I'm telling you, I've said in meetings, well, why not or what is it that you feel or that's actually not true or,, the short days are actually shorter.

Like everything I'm telling you, I have talked to parents about. Let’s have a conversation about this. What is it that you feel? What do you feel is missing? What do you feel that… Why do you think that's going to be better? And, I think so too having a lot of behaviorists on staff, which has been very helpful.

Teresa: We have staff to help support kids do well. Right. That's part of our main approach. You know, we do have a lot of specialization within the district. I myself have a lot of specialization with. Then I brought in a lot of specialization for my behavioral team, right. So that we can better meet the needs of kids when they have severe problem behavior.

And then more to that end, I've also left it open for other districts to vicariously observe our consultant, come in and observe and learn from the strategies that we're doing that perhaps they're not doing. It's a partnership like I'm doing it. Can you learn from what we're doing because we're open to you learning from us? I have an open welcome.

We do an alternative behavioral approach called PFA SBT for kids with severe problem behavior. We have a consultant from FTF which is in Boston and we invite District. We have other districts come and watch the consultations. We you know, I'm happy to have other people learn vicariously from us. We are here to support other districts. We field phone calls all the time.

There are 600 districts, but we're one state and we not come together for the betterment of all of our students. So I do think, like Cross County collaboration also would be really powerful. Sharing resources, building PLCs, professional learning communities across districts.

We're still one state. We can still support each other. We could all move the needle forward together and help all of our students. Right. Because independent also costs a lot of money, right? Each state has to pay for their own consult on their own. Okay. Can we not do some things like jointly and then kind of all help each other to go forward?

We don't all have to reinvent the wheel. Right. And I think the whole state, all of our students would go farther that way. So that's just a personal philosophy I have around it. I do try to bring districts together because I think it's just good practice, but I think it just helps everyone. It helps all of our students. It helps all of our districts.

Arthur: Absolutely.

Teresa: And there are no sides. That's the whole thing. It's not like districts against families.

Arthur: Right

Teresa: We're all like I consider myself an advocate for kids, right? There's no side to that. That's like right down the middle, Right? We're all on the same team. Let's all move that team together.

Right? It's not us and them.

Arthur: Yeah, like you said, all on the same team, trying to move the needle in the right direction, and it works better together isn’t that how it goes?

Teresa: Well, there we go. That's the NJCIE slogan better together. I love it.

Arthur: So we can, it’s so true, though, not keeping the secrets from each other, sharing with each other. And like you said, partnering and collaborating with each other, that all because we all have that one same goal, that one mission of making it better for the students and, when when we all work together, it can really start seeing some great change.

Teresa: absolutely.

Arthur: Yeah. So thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was really great to meet you and talk with you and, I definitely look forward to our paths crossing again in the future.

Teresa: Likewise. It was an enjoyable conversation about one of my favorite topics.

Arthur: Yes, Yes. And I love… I say it to a lot of the guests, I can tell, even though we're meeting on Zoom, their passion for this and that they truly believe in it. And that's what I enjoy about these conversations of meeting like-minded people who are so passionate about a topic like inclusive education and their desire to see the change and to make the change and be a part of it.

And so it's it's really great to have this conversation with you. So thank you.

Teresa: Well, thank you for inviting me. And it was an honor and absolutely a pleasure. So best of luck to you, Arthur.

Arthur: Thank you so much and enjoy your day.

Teresa: Thank you.

Arthur: Thank, you too.

Arthur: Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.

Arthur AstonJuly 13, 2023

Episode 28: Rising to the Occasion

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