Episode 35: The Power and Importance of Collaboration Part 2

This is part two of my conversation with Monica Ahern and Maureen Holly Kerne. The conversation continues as Monica and Maureen share what they wish districts knew about inclusive education and some of the success stories they have seen over the years.

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Transcript

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education why it works and how to make it happen. This is part two of my conversation with Monica Ahern and Maureen Holly Kerne. The conversation continues as Monica and Maureen share what they wish districts knew about inclusive education and some of the success stories they have seen over the years.

Arthur: So the next part of the conversation I would like to talk about what do you wish districts would understand about inclusive education and the importance of working collaboratively with parents?

Maureen: I think what I would hope that districts would understand about inclusive education is that it is based in research, it is based in theory, and it has been demonstrated over to improve students progress.

I also wish that districts would understand that all students can learn in inclusive environments with the appropriate supports and accommodations and that districts would create cultures that accept diversity and that accept all children as equals in their school district.

Monica: That it's a win-win situation for everyone because all children can learn best when they're in a classroom filled with diversity.

Right? We all learn from each other. So our neurotypical peers are students with IEPs. We all learn from each other. I always and I'm going to show my age. I talk about when we used to track students, right when we used to have the high track, the middle track, the low track of students, we knew that didn't work.

We proved that didn't work right because we learn from each other. And we all have different strengths and weaknesses. So when we put students together, we have students who want to put in self-contained classes or in resources. And those students bring so much to the conversation and to the classroom, and then they in turn learn from their peers.

So it is really a win-win situation. And the world is not segregated. Right? We all have to come together in the workplace and in the community and work together. So we need to learn that from when we start preschool. We need to learn how to accept each other and work together and be together, and the best place to do that is in preschool and through school. So everyone wins.

Maureen: I think the other thing that I think that districts need to understand is inclusion is not about opening a class. Inclusion is about a cultural shift in this school, including everybody in the school, the principal the assistant principal, the teachers, the janitors, the people in the lunchroom.

So it's really about creating a culture of acceptance in your school, in your district. And inclusion is never going to work by just opening by simply opening a class. Because, again, what we're doing is we have the inclusive class instead of looking at the entire school and saying, how do we become a culture that accepts diversity, that embraces diversity, that is able to appropriately address diversity? How do we become that?

When you start asking those hard questions, then I think you're starting to create a culture of inclusion.

Arthur: Yes, that is the culture of inclusion. I love that. That's another common topic that comes up in these conversations. And it goes beyond just the one inclusive classroom. It's not just a classroom. It's not a place, it's a whole culture of the school.

As you said again, including everyone from the top administration level down in the district, it really does take, like the village. It takes the whole the whole village every everybody to participate, make this a success. So thank you both for sharing that.

Arthur: So the next question, I know it can be hard to choose just one, because as you said, you've been in this, you know, in this profession for so long, for so many years, but was there a positive interaction that either one or both of you have had with the district as it relates to inclusive education that you can describe and share with us?

I think we've both had them. Maureen, do you want to start or do you want me?

Maureen: You can do yours. We practiced this already. We went over these.

Monica: Most recently, I had a really good experience with a family that I was working with. And the family had been in a district and I went to the district, of course, so actually the family was in a district and they had a really good experience.

Their child was completely included and doing great and then they moved into another district and things just went downhill. And the kid is amazing. He's an amazing musician and he's just a great kid. They moved into the new district. He started high school and the district immediately put him in a self-contained class, which he had never been in. For close to a year, we tried to work collaboratively with the district and have him included, and it just didn't work.

The reason I tell the story, because we want to show how we parents become so desperate to do what's right for their kids. They moved. They actually moved from one town to another and moved into a district where the students started his second year of high school and he is 100% included in high school. Went from a self-contained class, an M.D., self-contained class, multiply-disabled to full inclusion.

He's in the band. He is in the play in the crew. He doesn't like to act, but he's in the crew in the back. He is so happy. I got his first day of school picture, just so thrilled. I receive pictures of him playing in the band He's joined and just so thrilled and 100% included.

When he was in the other high school, he wasn't allowed to choose any of his electives because he had to go where the self-contained class chose all his own elective. SAT with him at his IEP meeting, sat with him with the guidance counselor. He was able to choose all his own electives. He's doing woodworking because his dad's in construction and he works with his dad. Just amazing.

The difference for this kid is just like so night and day, I can't even explain it. He literally went from a self-contained multiple-disabled class to full inclusion just by moving one town over. So if this town can do it, the town next door should be able to do it.

Maureen: And I'm going to tell you, I actually am going to deviate. I'm going to tell a totally different story. One of the things that I have been adamant about is transition. So students who are getting ready to move from school to adult life. So I've had many students who spent their life and their days in self-contained classes. And the parent expectation for one of the kids was that he was going to go into what's called a day program.

So in the adult world, that is a separate, self-contained program that students will go into if they need those supports and I met with the parent. And I met with the student and we did something called person-centered planning. And when we started to talk, it became very clear that the student wanted to go out and work. And I said to the mom, let's go for it. Let's go for it, and we did go for it. It was a long road. It was a hard road.

Maureen: But at the end of the day, this student has been working now for I'm going to now I'm going to age myself. I'm probably about ten years. He is the happiest. He is part of his community. He is employed. He goes to company picnics, he goes to company parties. So this is a child to the district. So I needed to be in a separate, self-contained class for his whole life. And the community took a chance on this child and said, we're going to hire him. He's going to become one of us. And he is just doing I still go and visit him at work.

He is just the happiest person in the world because he is out there, He's earning money. He's doing all of the things that we want to do. He had all of the same hopes and dreams that we did, and we were able to help him realize those dreams, and it was just an absolutely amazing experience.

Arthur: Thank you both for those great stories and listening to both of them, it it showed to me like what people are capable of when given the opportunity to be placed in specific settings. And they surprise people all the time. And it's just, you don't know what someone is capable of until you give them a chance to see what they can do.

So these are really great examples. And Monica, in the story that you shared, thinking about how just that one town over a few towns over, you can change and see something totally different than what you saw previously. And as you said, if one district can do it everyone should be able to do it, in their own way, because districts are different, they're different sizes and have different resources available to them and things like that.

But it can all be done, and can all be done successfully, matching up with your district and the needs of those students within that district. So thank you both for sharing those stories.

Arthur: And to wrap up this conversation, I would like for you to share what you feel makes you different. And other advocates, other parents advocates.

Maureen: We’re better!

Arthur: Perfect. Yes.

Maureen: I mean, I don't want to say it, but, I think I think and I'll start and Monica will chime in. I think what makes us not necessarily better, but different is that we have lived this our whole professional careers. We've lived in on both sides of the fence, meaning that we've been in the system and now we're working outside the system.

So we have a very good working knowledge of how the system works. I think the other thing is that both Monica and I and Monica has mentioned it before, have known each other for forever. We are both extremely passionate about what we do. We believe in what we do and we believe strongly believe that all kids can be included if we can figure out the right way to support them.

So I think with that belief and with that passion, we could change the world. We could take a world one kid at a time.

Monica: Absolutely. And I think for us, as a former director, I have dealt with advocates and like in any profession, some are good and some are not so good. But for us, it's not about the fight, it's about doing what's right for the kid.

So, again, you know, as both of us former directors, we understand both sides of the fence, but we also believe in going we're not going to go in there, you know, yelling and screaming. We're going to go in there trying to collaborate and make the relationship work, always thinking about what's in the best interest of the child, which is inclusion.

We're going to try get what we want because it's right for the kid, but it's not going to be an adversarial thing. We were going to try and work and again, I'm going to age us both, Maureen, but we've been around a long time and we know a lot of people.

Monica: So usually we can go in and have like a really professional conversation and say, hey, listen, let's sit down, let's talk. Here's how the parent is feeling, Here's what we know is right, Here's all the resources we can give you.

We can write goals. We can set somebody up a DVR or DVRS or a case manager. We can assist the district and assist the parent. So I think that’s it, and we're just better <laughter>.

Arthur: Oh gosh, that was funny.

Yeah, that's it's great. And I really appreciate this conversation with you both. And it's it's funny, it reminded me of a friend of mine who was a teacher, and I came to do a presentation for one of her classes. She was an English teacher. And what I didn't share with you both is that I. I also have a disability.

I was born with spinal bifida and I went and spoke to her classroom one day, and it was the day that she was getting observed by her principal. This is someone I've known since middle school at the conversation with you both in the way that you've known each other for so long reminded me of that day because her principal said, I don't know what you two just did, but it was like, magnificent, and you need to take the show on the road like this. It was so good!

Arthur: She would ask, or she would say like a few words to me, and I would have a whole story about something that we did. So it just reminded me, you know, listening to you both talk and, as you said, you've known each other for so long and have worked together on inclusion and getting inclusion into schools in New Jersey and helping parents and working for that collaborative relationship between districts and parents is so important.

So thank you both for joining me for this episode and sharing your story and your experiences. thank you.

Monica: Thank you for having us.

Arthur: Yes. So I will be in touch with you soon.

Monica: sounds great. Thank you.

Arthur: Have a good day. Take care.

We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast.

This podcast is brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcast, and don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.