Episode 9: Ableism: Let's Talk About it

On this episode, I welcome back to the podcast, Priya Lalvani. We discuss ableism and the role that it plays in inclusive education. We also discuss a book she edited called Constructing the (M)other: Narratives of Disability, Motherhood, and the Politics of Normal.

Episode Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and, most importantly, why it works.

This episode is part 2 of my conversation with Priya Lalvani. Priya is a professor of disability studies and the coordinator of the inclusive education graduate programs at Montclair State University. We discuss ableism and the role that it plays in inclusive education. We also discuss a book she edited called Constructing the (M)other: Narratives of Disability, Motherhood, and the Politics of Normal. Let’s get into the conversation, Priya it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast.

Priya: Thank you so much Arthur. I’m excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Arthur: Yes, so our next part of the conversation, I would like to talk about your book, ‘What is Ableism’. In that book, you discuss ableism. Can you briefly define what that term is about wisdom for those who are unfamiliar with it?

Priya: Ableism refers to a persistent devaluing of individuals with disability or disability itself. It's a viewpoint- its viewpoints in which disability is understood as an inherently negative and undesirable way of being something to be avoided, something to be eliminated, something to be fixed, right?

I guess a simple way that I can explain it is, I guess it's analogous to the other -isms, like we understand racism, sexism, classism. So that's just one way to understand people is.

Same thing refers to disability. Similar to the other -isms, ableism is rooted in fear or prejudice. Right? But it unfolds as a system of systematic discrimination and oppression that operates at three levels like any -ism, at the individual level, at the cultural level, and most damaging at the institutional level. So, for example, it manifests as lack of access, negative attitudes, prejudice, stereotypes and fear and avoidance of people with disabilities or just fear what you don't know. But those are very broad, I guess.

It also operates in very subtle ways without our awareness, for example, in the context of schools, because we're having a conversation about schools, right, and inclusive education. Ableism operates as physical spaces, expectations, rules of conduct, everything being set up to the advantage of non-disabled people.

So when you think about it, we set up everything in advance in a way that works for some people, for non-disabled people, and we haven't really talked about that. Right. So ableism is a lack of consciousness of the fact that we created a world in the first place, which only worked for some people, and now we're having to accommodate the ones that it doesn't work for. But instead, we should be flipping that. OK.

Priya: And I said before that ableism is like the other -isms, but let me just point out that in some ways, in one way it's unlike the other -isms because this one is largely outside the public consciousness, because you even said, explain it for those who may not be familiar with the term, and I find that it's not a term that has entered the public consciousness. And in a way, ableism remains as some people in the disability rights movement call it, a permissible prejudice.

It's OK. Things that would not be OK for other marginalized groups remain OK because it's disability.

Arthur: I know in my personal life through being on social media, especially through the last almost two years living in the pandemic, ableism has been brought up through the disability community and a lot of people are posting more videos about it. But as you said, largely as a whole, I don't think it is something that most people are aware of, that the term exists and what it actually means. So I'm glad that you gave that explanation and definition of that, which leads into our next question, which you touched on a little bit about -ism and in schools, and disability in general in schools.

Arthur: Why do you feel like these topics of disability and ableism are not really discussed in schools and in the classroom?

Priya: I think that's a really great question, and that is something that I spend a lot of time not only thinking about but working toward changing, if you will.

So it's interesting that among the social justice education community, in the past couple of decades, there's been an increasing acknowledgment that there is a need for us to infuse an understanding about prejudice in schools.

It's pretty much recognized and acknowledged that there is a value to anti-bias curricula in schools, and many schools have adopted anti-bias curricula. It is required. So teaching children to recognize prejudice and bigotry and respond to it. Is very much happening in many schools, at least in social justice oriented schools.

However, as you said before, even within that context, disability tends to be left out. Ableism is not necessarily acknowledged or discussed. And in fact, it's interesting when you think about it, people with disabilities actually comprise the largest minority group in the United States.

It is a group that has a rich history. That history is not present in our history textbooks. It is omitted. It is left out. The vast majority of Americans will graduate high school without any awareness of the existence of the disability rights movement, of the existence of disability culture, or any awareness of any issues current related to disability or disability, oppression or ableism, right?

Priya: So why is that, is your question. There's a number of things for one, and I work with teachers daily, so this comes up a lot, right? And we talk about it and ways to ameliorate that.

But one reason is that many teachers feel fearful. Or ill-equipped. They just don't feel that they can talk about it or they feel that it's a hushed topic and they're not supposed to talk about it, right? Which I don't know why.

But complicating it further is this educational myth or rather myths, even beyond education, that young children are innocent and they don't notice differences? I don't know how many times I've heard this, and I talk about it in my book as well, that teachers will say to me whenever I've asked them, ‘Do you talk about disability in your classroom?’ and they say, ‘Oh, children are so innocent, children are so accepting. We don't need to talk about it because they didn't ask.’ So that's sort of a myth that children don't notice difference, and that can be likened to colorblind ideology.

This idea that ‘We don't notice race,’ which, many scholars have problematized colorblind ideology as rooted in racism. If you're saying you don't notice race, that's a problem, right? And so we need to be thinking about it that way with disability itself.

So as a result, there is a complete silence around the topic of disability and ableism in schools, and I don't think it's that children don't notice differences. I think it's wonderful to notice differences. And why shouldn't they?

Priya: It’s that children have internalized the stigmas around disability, and they have learned that certain kinds of differences, you don't mention, and that's a problem because it sort of perpetuates the stigma and the silence around disability in schools when coupled with the fact that children have few opportunities to interact with children with disabilities, because we have segregated school systems. So when you put those two together, you’ve got a perfect storm where it perpetuates stereotypes and prejudice, and ableism. We didn't talk about it, and we didn't give children an opportunity to be together and to get to know each other.

Arthur: I love that you said it's a myth about, you know, children not noticing differences because as a wheelchair user and a person who uses crutches, children definitely notice that I'm different when I see them in the store, my friends, their children, they know that I'm different.

And it's so interesting. I have a really good friend I've known since I was in college and her children have known me since they were born. And I have conversations with kids at their age level whenever they're ready to talk about my braces or my crutches or my wheelchair.

And I had told them, these are called crutches, I need them for this, and here's why I need them. Or maybe a couple of months later, I went back over, her daughter remembered that they were called crutches, but she says, ‘Why do you need them?’

I forget what she told me and I said, ‘Really?’ And she said, ‘Yeah,’ my friend goes, ‘No, she's joking with you, she understands. So she just wants to see what you say and see if you switch it up, and that's it.’ I said, ‘No, I still need them for the same reasons.’

And I have another friend, actually, it's the same family. The two moms are sisters where their children are used to seeing me use my crutches. So the one time I brought my wheelchair out of my one friend's daughter, she didn't come close to me. She would talk to me. She knew who I was, but it was different. It was different than what she, you know, OK, if it's like you told me about your crutches, but like, what is this chair? You're sitting in that stroller, like, what is this thing with wheels?

So I'm so glad that you brought that up. You know that it's a method that children don't notice differences because I believe they they truly do.

Priya: And they should. Why would they not, right? I mean, it is funny that you say that I've actually been to classrooms where you're right, that it's visible to people. Kids are sitting in wheelchairs. Another child is using a communication device. A third one is working with speech therapist. And the teacher is saying that the children have not noticed anything different.

Arthur: Right.

Priya: So they've probably noticed and the fact that they haven't asked questions because they've internalized that they shouldn't ask.

Arthur: Mm hmm.

Priya: And so they really can't be talking about inclusivity in schools when we are stigmatizing some children's identities and they pick up that there is a hierarchy here.

Arthur: And I think it happens again, when using the reference of being out in public for myself, where you have the parents that will tell the child to shush, don't look in that direction or, don't stare. And instead of having the conversation of, ‘That's a wheelchair. He needs it because his legs might be weak or for whatever reason.’

Or ‘Let's say hi to him. Let's say hi to the man.’ I've had parents that do that, let their child talk to me and the child is OK. But it's that stigma of we shouldn't talk about disability. I think it goes, like you said in the classroom, and it goes beyond the classroom walls as well because it happens out in the world, in general, in society.

Priya: Yeah. And that's really ableism, because what that tells us is that I'm not supposed to talk about it or mention it, it can't be a good thing, right?

Arthur: Yes. So that is a perfect tie-in to those two questions. Yeah.

So to wrap up this conversation, you wrote a book called Constructing the Mother Narratives of Disability, Motherhood and Politics of Normal, and I truly enjoyed this book.

I had a chance to read it a few months ago, and I really enjoyed so many different parts of the book. And in the book, you talk about disability as being another form of diversity, and you share stories about how disability was positioned in your home using the birth stories of your two children.

But that's not typically how disability is viewed in society. I know through recent years, diversity, equity, and inclusion have been discussed, and disability again is often left out of those conversations. So can you talk about that? Why do you feel that disability is not often seen as another form of diversity?

Priya: Sure. So, yeah, you're right. And thank you for your kind words about the book. But yeah, you're right. We in our family, we have always viewed disability as a form of diversity ever since my daughter was born. It was obvious, aligned with and we allowed ourselves to be informed by the disability rights community.

And it's interesting because our family already had a number of forms of diversity in it. Right. I'm an immigrant, a South Asian woman married to a Jewish man. We are an interracial, interfaith, and, international couple, and so when my daughter was born, we viewed it as yet another form of difference, value difference, and diversity in our family. That's how we decided to view it and welcome it as a form of difference. And we talked about it openly, always with our children and proudly.

It was never a harsh topic in our home, at the dinner table it was, you know, disability conversations about disability and disability rights or like, ‘Please pass the potatoes.’ But you know, you're also right to say that it's not typically viewed that way in our society.

I think, I don't see a reason to shy away from differences. I think the problem is that. We are so afraid to point out that we are different in some ways, right? Look, differences among humans have always existed.

Humans have so much in common, obviously, they have more in common than we are different by virtue of the fact that we are human. However, it is OK to acknowledge that there are differences among us in appearance and size, in our preferences and the ways in which we are wired and the ways in which we approach the world, and in our abilities and disabilities. So to me, disability is a natural and inevitable form of human variation. It's not the difference, per se, that’s the problem, it’s the way that we are responding to the differences. That's the problem.

So, in the context of schools, as you said, I think that there's an over-reliance on the rhetoric of, ‘Oh, you all the same. We are all special.’ You often hear that, right? ‘We're all the same.’

And I get that to be fair, I understand the need for that. We have historically, as a country, we've had a history of bigotry and prejudice and oppression. So I understand the need in schools to educate children that underneath it all, there are more similarities than differences.

I get that. But what we're doing is we're sweeping under the rug, that there are some differences among us. And the thing is that these differences are beautiful if they all make us unique. It's a good thing, right?

I think that differences can also lead to the development of a positive group identities sometimes. So I think that it's important to understand that in the context of inclusive education, like how does this title inclusive education, is that it's just not going to be enough to put a kid with a disability in a general education classroom.

Right? It's also not going to be enough if you create access to the curriculum and strategies and all of that because ultimately it's also going to be about the emotional and social well-being of all children. And if a child doesn't feel like they belong, because that is also a part of inclusivity.

And Gordon Allport did his classic studies on prejudice reduction some decades ago and demonstrated through his seminal studies that physical proximity is not going to be enough to overcome prejudice. It just isn’t. Prejudice towards any group.

Putting diverse kids together, in a space is never going to reduce prejudice. So it really means that we need to teach children all the children, right, how to communicate and interact with each other. What it means to be a community in which we are different in many ways, we are similar in many ways, but we better start thinking about how we can create inclusive communities of belonging.

Arthur: Wow. I go back to the ableism conversation that we had and just and relating that to the other isms and, like you said, just close proximity is not enough to make those things disappear. So it's just so important this conversation that we had that I thoroughly enjoyed. I enjoyed preparing this conversation with you and the conversations that we had offline. And I just truly, I thank you for your time today for recording this with me for the podcast.

And can you just share with us, before we wrap up, can you share with us where people can purchase your books?

Priya: They are both available on Amazon. So you should be able to get them there.

Arthur: So again, Priya, thank you for this great conversation. I really enjoyed it and I hope you have a great day.

Priya: Thank you. Thank you, Arthur. I really enjoyed talking to you, too.

Arthur: Yes. All right. You take care.

Priya: OK.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE.

Until next time.