Episode 19: Staying the Course

On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman. During our conversation today, we will discuss the evolution of inclusive education and what motivates Bonni to continue her passion for bringing more inclusive schools to the state of New Jersey.

Transcript

Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman.

Bonni is a retired educator, a former director of special education, and is currently an inclusive education consultant with NJCIE. During our conversation today, we will discuss the evolvement of inclusive education and what motivates Bonni to continue her passion of bringing more inclusive schools to the state of New Jersey.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman.

So Bonni thank you for joining me today for this episode.

Bonni: Thank you so much for having me.

Arthur: You and I, I've said this a lot this season, but you and I met over the summer at the NJCIE conference and it was great to meet you in person and to hear a little bit about your story. We met at dinner that night, and I'm really excited for you to share your story with everyone here on the podcast today.

Bonni: It’s wonderful to be here.

Arthur: Yes. So to get started, can you just share with us a little bit about yourself and tell us who is Bonni?

Bonni: Well, so I am Bonni Rubin-Sugarman. I'm a wife, a mother, a stepmother, a bubbe, which is a very important role in my world, and in addition to that, a very new golfer and a lifelong educator. I began my career as a general education teacher way back when, and we'll probably talk about that.

And then became a special education teacher. I was a learning disabilities teacher consultant on a child study team for several years. I've done pre-referral intervention for a number of years at the elementary and at the middle school level, and I was the Director of Special Education in two New Jersey school districts.

I retired from my full-time work in 2014, and have been a consultant for the NJCIE since 2014 and have probably been with the organization for about 25 years.

Arthur: Wow, that's great. I love that you said you are a new golfer and a Bubbe. That's really fun. Yes. Yes, definitely. I guess it was over in the spring. I went to—not golfing—but to Top Golf.

And they're very accessible for as a person being a wheelchair user, I found them to be very accessible and very knowledgeable, the people that we were paired with to help us out. They were very helpful with showing me how to use the clubs and everything from my wheelchair from a seated position. So I've definitely taken a liking to that style of golf.

Bonni: That’s a place I have to go. I have not been there yet. So it's on the list to do that.

Arthur: Yes. That's a lot of fun. We went for somebody’s birthday and tried it out and it was really great. So that made me when you said golfing, it made me think of that.

So as you mentioned, you've been an educator, a lifelong educator, which is really great. Can you just share with us how inclusive education became a personal goal for you?

Bonni: Wow, thank you for asking that question, because it actually started, believe it or not, soon after I started teaching. I started teaching in 1974, and I was an elementary teacher in Montgomery County, Maryland.

And as you well know, in 1975, things started to change dramatically with the inception of the Education for All Handicapped Children Act, which was obviously the forerunner of IDEA. And in my school in Montgomery County, Maryland, that was taken very seriously.

I taught in a team taught, multi-aged setting with another general education teacher. So we had the classroom setting was actually three classrooms with the walls opened and a multi-age group first and second grade, and this school encouraged these multi-age classes, team teaching, open space classroom, creative strategies, small group instruction, and collaboration. All the underpinnings of what good inclusive practice looks like.

I had a remarkable principal who was way ahead of his time. As a result of this, after the federal law changed, we had many children who would leave our classroom and go to a recess room for things like subjects like reading and language arts and math and that kind of thing, and our resource room, where a special education teacher informed us that now she could come into the classroo,m and we thought, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is wonderful.’ So now we have another professional in the classroom with the children that certainly she was working with, and she was able to have small group instruction with not only the children that she was taking out, but children in our classroom who benefited from the strategies that she had in her arsenal that we didn't.

So when you think about that, and again, this is 1975, not only did the children benefit and our students benefit from what she brought into the classroom as a special educator, but we benefited as well.

Bonni: At that point, we were in the right place at the right time. Now we know we were doing the right thing, and you know, Arthur, we were building the plane as we were flying it.

We were trying to figure out for ourselves and for our class and for our students what would work best. There was no training. There was no road map. But, we knew in our heart of hearts that this had significant benefits to everybody involved.

And, at the end of the day, these ladies that I started working with in 1974 and 1975 continue to be my dearest friends in the world today. So that was an added bonus.

Arthur: That’s great. I love that it started so long ago for you. Like right away when you started teaching. That’s really great to hear. And I love that you said how everybody benefited, not just the students, but also the other educators in the room, benefitted from the special education teacher coming in.

And it's interesting to me because every student learns differently. So, the way that you may have been teaching something a student in your class might not have picked up on the material, but having that additional person come in and show a different way and they say like, ‘Oh, wow, I get it.’ That always is very helpful. I always think that, like you said, everybody benefits from it. So that's a really good thing to hear and to hear that it started for you back in 1975. That's really great.

Bonni: And it also gave us the opportunity to reinforce that we're with those students all day. Our special educator came in, certainly at various times in the day, and just through watching those strategies, we were able to reinforce what worked for those students.

Certainly students with IEPs at the time, but also our other students. So it was such a win-win.

Arthur: Yes, a win-win for everybody. That's always great when it works out that way.

Arthur So can you, I want to, I guess, talk about the changes that you have seen.

Being an educator for so long, how has teaching and the state of inclusion changed over the times that you began up through the present or until when you retired?

Bonni: Well. Yeah. I see those, to a certain extent they are separate but also that they're, the strategies, the teaching strategies and inclusive practice, certainly go hand in hand.

As far as teaching is concerned. There are probably three things that come to mind that have changed dramatically, I think, over the years.

The first is technology. I think we would all agree that technology has to stand out in terms of educational practice when used well, and that's the operative term. When used well, it is such an incredible tool that supports learning needs for all students. Certainly, students with disabilities benefit significantly from technology. And that includes areas like individualizing instruction, a whole host of accommodating our students and certainly communication.

So it has become and this is certainly we learned a lot during the pandemic, but of what we're capable of. And I see such tremendous differences in the use of technology now than I even saw pre-pandemic. Highly skilled at using technology to enhance their student’s achievement. So that's probably the first one.

Bonni: The second area that I think is UDL, Universal Design for Learning, which certainly didn't exist when I started teaching, but as a planning tool, when used well as a planning tool, it just enables teachers to meet the needs of a significantly dispersed population.

And that is how instruction is delivered in areas of delivery as well as in areas of how students can demonstrate their learning. So I think that's the second important change.

Bonni: Then also the importance of data collection. That wasn't something that was used well or universally necessarily, certainly when I started teaching, and how data collection informs teaching and individual student progress. You can't measure anything objectively, obviously, without good data collection. And I think teachers and certainly in their pre-service training, that's emphasized in so many areas.

So those have been three major changes, I think, in terms of teaching. And then in terms of inclusion, when I was thinking about this, I was going to say write books about this.

Bonni: So, I've been teaching in New Jersey since 1989. So it's kind of, that's a while as well. And although I'm an optimist by nature, I really am, as far as inclusion is concerned, I think many districts that I've worked in and that I continue to be part of have made significant gains in inclusion. So that's a good thing. But I also think that as far as we're concerned, in New Jersey, we have a way to go and our data supports that.

So it's reflected in our data, and there are areas that create a pretty significant challenge for districts and for schools.

Bonni: What I see is students with learning disabilities, students with ADHD, ADD and even speech and language needs are certainly included at a much higher rate than students with intellectual disabilities or autism and certainly behavioral needs. Unfortunately, in many cases where you have students who are included it is a result of an administrative law judge or parents who have been very insistent on having their children included.

And my experience has been that sometimes we are there as consultants with NJCIE, because of that. So I think that although we have come a long way there, there's work to be done when it comes to inclusive practice more universally.

Arthur: So well said. I’m 40 years old now. I'll be 41 next week actually.

Bonni: Happy almost birthday.

Arthur: Thank you. So to hear what you were saying about the changes in education with technology and UDL and those things coming, happening over time.

It's really been great to see, and as you mentioned, during the pandemic, seeing the capabilities and what we are able to achieve with technology when it works correctly, has really been great and it's really been great for people with disabilities and students with disabilities to be able to use the technology for educational purposes and to really, I guess, to really, be able to succeed using technology that is available to them.

Bonni: And I think, just to piggyback on what you're saying, it's about access, and for some of our students, technology has provided significant access to that general education curriculum that had, you know, certainly years and years ago we didn't have and we didn't have universally.

I think what's in addition to what we just talked about, I think the one of the additional areas that's changed significantly is parents’ involvement, in not only the individual student process and how important that involvement is and how more consistent parent involvement is. But also, parents having a voice in their district practices when it comes to special education and inclusion through their SEPAC committees.

Having had that experience as a director as those SEPAC committees were evolving was an incredibly positive experience for me and I would like to think added greatly to how we approached inclusion and other areas of special education needs in the district.

Arthur: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. That's a really good, good addition to mention for sure.

So we've talked about the benefits of inclusion and how everyone has benefited positively from inclusion. But can you share with us what are some of the things that make inclusion challenging to achieve?

Bonni: I think that the first thing and the most significant thing that I continue to see in many of the districts that I've worked in is overcoming a belief that a more restrictive environment provides greater academic benefit. And first of all, that's a myth.

And it continues to be something that people talk about, professionals talk about, parents talk about, students talk about, and there isn't any real basis or data that supports that idea because it's not.

I've observed students—and this is an interesting phenomenon—I have observed students in general education classes and then observed the same student in, say, a more restrictive environment or resource center classroom. And quite honestly, other than the fact that I can identify that it is the same student, there are so many aspects of the student's behavior, the student's engagement, and the student's motivation that is so different in a more restrictive setting. And when I talk about this to whether it be parents or whether it be administrators, and teachers, people still believe that the opportunities for that student are greater in the more restrictive environment. So I think that's one of the issues that probably are on top of that question of what is challenging for us in terms of moving forward and inclusion.

Bonni: So that's the first one. I think the second one I would want to talk to you about is the rationale for removal in IEPs, which is a significant conversation at IEP meetings as to why we need to remove this student in order for this student to benefit from this educational program.

And in many schools and in many districts, if you look at the rationale for removal, they're basically the same. People talk about the same issues. Pacing, they talk about small class sizes, they talk about repetition, the need for modifications, and significant accommodations.

And when you really drill that down, those are areas of need that can be and should be supported in a general education classroom. We've talked about special education being services, a group of services that are provided for a student, not necessarily in a place.

And I think that that's a recurring theme for many of our students. I sometimes say lower and slower doesn't mean better. And sometimes it’s more than not, conducive to educational progress for our students.

Bonni: And I guess number three, which I'm finding is a huge issue in many of our secondary schools, especially at the high school level, and that's how to design and implement curricular modifications for students. That area seems to be the continuing source of challenge for teachers and certainly for administrators.

When that area is consistently implemented and I'm speaking to curriculum modifications. What happens is, for those students, those modifications lead to more appropriate assignments, whether that be classroom assignments, homework assignments and then assessments, and then grades, they are all linked.

So when modifications are provided and they are provided appropriately, everything else kind of falls into place in a more consistent way for our students.

Bonni: So I think that's probably the third area that I would emphasize.

Arthur: You shared that, you've been doing this work for so long and you've seen a lot of changes take place and specifically in one of the districts you worked in Haddonfield.

Can you share what you see as a critical component for more inclusive practices to happen as it did in districts like Haddonfield?

Bonni: Well, I want to preface this by saying I was very fortunate when I joined the Haddonfield Administrative Team, and when I say fortunate, there was an inclusive mindset in hand. However, we needed to continue to enhance that. And I think that for me as a director Haddonfield was a good match. So we'll leave it there for now.

So what are critical components? I think philosophy and leadership are right up there, and communication. Communication with all stakeholders, certainly parents, teachers, staff, and administrative colleagues. Those ongoing conversations about where we are and where we're going.

The next thing that I think is critical within that context of communication is identifying barriers. What is getting in the way of more inclusive practice in your school district? And I ask that question as a consultant, I ask it in schools, and then I ask it in a broader sense, in a school district.

It's so important for us to try to identify what's getting in the way. And through conversations like what's working here? What are we doing that works for our students when it comes to inclusive practice?

I'm an optimist by nature. I love to start with that question. And let's get as many of the things that work up and on a chart. Let's talk about it. Let's celebrate what we do well. The flip side of that is, let's identify what's getting in the way.

Bonni: Hopefully, our what's getting in the way list is shorter than our celebration list. But I think it's important for all of us to agree that these areas or these elements get in the way of us moving forward.

Once we have identified those areas, then I think what follows in a very consistent way is training and support. Once we've identified it, let's do our best to provide more support to whatever group of individuals requires that support from us as administrators.

And that could be positive for behavioral supports, it could be technology, it could be curricular modifications. So many of the things that we've just talked about and co-teaching. So once those are identified and we implement this professional development and continue, it's not just one and done, continue to provide support in those areas to our teachers and our staff members. And that's through brainstorming, communication availability, whether it be our child study teams, our case managers, myself as a director. That ongoing support and the notion that I'm in this with you.

Bonni: If I were to talk about a message that I hope I gave to the folks I work with; we’re in this together. And that's the kind of thing that I think is vitally important when it comes to, you know, certainly moving forward.

The other thing is hiring practices. As districts, whether we do this in small groups or larger groups, depending upon the need and the staff members that need to be employed, I think that notion of an inclusive mindset is important. Somehow that has to be part of the process of hiring, the questioning and the interview, has to include the priority that the district has set in terms of inclusion.

Bonni: And then, you know, Arthur, the last thing I would say is stay the course! It can be a bumpy road. This was not necessarily a straight shot to where you're going. And, there's ebbs and flows and we're going to be taking some side trips and having some hard conversations. And those districts that have been the most successful that I've had an opportunity to work with have been those districts who have stayed the course during some pretty hard conversations.

Arthur: I think what you said is so true. It's especially that last part. It's not, it's not going to be easy all the time and they're going to be bumps and detours you have to make, but to remain focused on that goal and communication.

I love when you said that as well. That was so true. And acknowledging what you're doing right, and working on the things that you're not doing so well. That's all really important.

And I think what struck me the most in what you said was, it's like everybody is in this together. You even as the role you had as a director like you're working this with everybody, and, that's important for everybody that's involved to know that they have a leader, who supports them and is dedicated to reaching the inclusion goal, and just sticking with it until you get there.

Bonni: Thank you for saying that. And when I look back on my career, from the time I was a teacher and in the seventies, there have been instances where including that student, whether it be in the classroom, in a special subject area or an after school activity, has become the focus of a great many people in order to have that child be successful.

I remember, we had one student and if I remember correctly, at the time the student was a middle school student, and he had more significant needs and he was a runner. And he and his dad ran at home and through the community, and he loved it. And he wanted to be on the track team, and run with his, certainly with his peers.

And what we were able to set up for him, a group of us and this was case manager, the principal, myself as a director, we actually got on a schedule because the student didn't have support, in order to support that student needs, I shouldn’t say they didn't have support because he did, but he didn't necessarily have somebody who could run with him.

So we got together and talked about how we could support his need and be there to support him and the team, through running. We had actually been on a schedule to run with the track team through the community when they were practicing. So, for us, that was one of the highlights, and I look back at those times, and I say to myself how wonderful it was for us to have had the opportunity to do that with him.

Arthur: Wow. That's a great story. Wow. And it's one of those things that you recognize something that the student liked and you said, okay, how can we all become a part of this, and make this happen for that student? To make things better for them and you made it happen.

Wow. That's really great.

Bonni: He kept us all running.

Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. Got everybody active, right?

Bonni: That’s another win-win.

Arthur: Yeah. So to wrap up our conversation, it really ties into the last thing that you said there where, reaching the inclusion goal is not always a straight path and you have to go take some detours and there are some bumps and things in the road. And you have been at this inclusive education as your passion, as your career for over 40 years. What drives you to continue?

Bonni: You know something, Arthur? The same thing that drove me in the beginning, as in the beginning, you know, the ‘Genesis’ of all of this. And that was what we and I say ‘we,’ because, I think I have always been a ‘we,’ those educational, social, those community benefits to our students, our students, and to our school community and to our staff. That's honestly, that's the home run. That has always been the home run. I have had teachers say to me, he or she, meaning the student, has made me a better teacher.

I still get goosebumps when I see that, and honestly when a teacher says that to me. And in many cases, I have worked with teachers who have not had any experience with students who have a particular disability.

They don't have family members. They've not had a student who has had this particular need throughout their career. I think to a great extent, there's some fear, and ‘am I going to be able to do this?’

And when they discover that, how effective, how incredibly effective they are, because why? They're effective teachers, and they become more effective teachers because they have students who have greater needs. So that keeps my drive that keeps me going with all of this.

Bonni: And you know something, at the end of the day, Arthur, the great joy. Number one, the joy and the professional and personal benefit that my profession has brought to me as a person I will always be grateful for it.

I will always be grateful for this. And I have said to my own children, I hope you find that passion in the work that you do. I have been very fortunate to have found that in the work that I do and that is why I continue to do it.

And I am so grateful to be able to be part of the NJCIE community and be able to continue this work that we started all those many years ago.

Arthur: I love that you said it. It brings you joy.

I think that's what we all aim for in life, to find something, that we do for a living and to make a living, but it brings us joy. I think that is something we all should strive for.

And that is great, and I think that is a great way to wrap up our conversation today.

So, Bonni, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation and sharing your journey of working in the world of inclusive education and for the change you are helping to make.

Even now, as a retired educator, you're still working in the field and consulting. So thank you so much for the work that you do and for taking the time today to join me for this episode of the podcast.

Bonni: Arthur, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Arthur: Yes. So you take care.

We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE.

Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.