Episode 2: Supporting Students with Hidden Disabilities

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast we welcome our guest LeDerick Horne. LeDerick is a poet, speaker and advocate. Our conversation on this episode will provide insight into how educators can support students with hidden disabilities.

Episode Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE, as the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and most importantly, why it works. On today's episode, we welcome our guest, LeDerick Horne.

LeDerick is a poet, advocate and speaker. During our conversation today, we discuss how teachers can support those students with hidden disabilities as it relates to inclusive education. I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

Arthur: I’m your host, Arthur Aston, and I'm very happy to welcome my guest today, poet, advocate, and speaker LeDerick Horne to the podcast. Welcome. And we are very happy to have you here today.

LeDerick: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Arthur: So in researching for this episode, for this conversation with you, I read your bio on your website and it said that you are a bridge builder between learners and leaders. And I just– I really love that because I think it is something that does have to be bridged, you know, because the learners and the leaders and the teachers and everybody else in that education world, everybody must work together. They must find a way to connect to each other. So I love that analogy that you use of being a bridge builder.

And with that in mind, can you tell us what inclusive education means to you and how would you define inclusive education?

LeDerick: Well, I would define inclusive education as a collaborative approach to education that utilizes the resources of everyone in the school community in order to foster the success of all students. And what it means to me is that it allows a pathway by which we can rethink and reimagine education, and particularly for those of us who are folks with disabilities, those of us who are neuro-diverse.

I would really say just for any sort of marginalized people passing through the education system, I think that it allows for a different approach to education that increases the probability that we'll all be successful.

Arthur: Yes, I think that is the biggest goal there, that we were all successful and we reach our full potential, our fullest potential because we all have something to contribute to the world, to society, to our communities. And again, it's that bridge building, that connecting the two sides of the learners and the educators and everybody involved in the school system that this can be achieved by working collaboratively.

And so I love that answer. And I love the last statement of it that we can all be successful, because that is as someone who lives with a disability. I know I have faced a lot of stereotypes that people have had about those who have disabilities, and my disability is visible.

So it's automatically assumed that I can't do certain things. So, you know, so I really have had that struggle and had those challenges placed in front of me by other people most of my life. And thankfully, I have worked my way through it, and I think we can all really benefit from an inclusive education setting. As you mentioned.

LeDerick: Yeah. And, you know, I'm a person with a learning disability. So my challenges aren't necessarily as visible. The other thing about that line, I think, which is powerful, is particularly when it comes to inclusive education, is I think there is an embedded within there that students are part of the process. Right. That inclusive education is something and in education, in general, is something that should not just be handed down from the adults in the room, but that the student voice, that the student voice for an individual student in their education is important.

And I think that is in line with the ideals of self-determination and self-advocacy. And then I also think as far as the shaping of policies and practices, that students should have a say in that as well. So, yeah, I'm glad you pointed that out.

Arthur: Yeah, it is so important that as the student that the student has a voice as well, whether it's through themselves or through their parents or, you know, another advocate in that way.

But it is important that all voices at the table be heard and listened to and contribute to the conversation of how the inclusive education setting can work for everybody, because it does improve the classroom for everybody involved.

LeDerick: Absolutely.

Arthur: Yeah. So, as you mentioned, we do have a learning disability, you were diagnosed in the third grade. What is it that you remember about your learning experience after your diagnosis? Were you in an inclusive classroom that included your peers that were also with and without disabilities?

Or how was your school experience after your diagnosis with the learning disability?

LeDerick: Well, if we're going to really drill down to it. Right. When I was first diagnosed, when I was nine years old, I was in the third grade.

The first label I was given was that I was neurologically impaired. And I'm not sure at the time whether that was a shorthand for a specific learning disability or what have you. But what I do know from talking to colleagues who were working in education at the time, particularly here in New Jersey, was that was a fairly common label given particularly to black boys who are being recognized as needing support for special education. So was I in an inclusive educational setting? Absolutely not. I'm a part of the first generation of people to pass through what we now refer to as special education.

And a big part of that was, trying to figure out where to place us in the school. So I was initially in a resource room, which was a teacher storage closet and then placed into a self-contained special education classroom that was at the end of the hall in my elementary school. And that's basically where I stayed all day long. We would go down the hall as a class to art class. We would go down the hall for a gym together and then, you know, go to the cafeteria for lunch.

But for the most part, I spent about three and a half years in this one room with the same teacher and the same students. So I would not think of it as an inclusive setting.

I would think of it as being a very segregated setting, of course, not the worst form of segregation. You know, we have plenty of schools here and in the state of New Jersey and then all over the country, districts that build entirely separate schools for students with learning disabilities or other disabilities.

So it wasn't to that extreme. But I definitely– I remember very early on feeling like I was less than other students, and it really began, I recall the first day, right where I'd been in regular ed classes.

And then like, here's the day where you're going to start going to special ed. And that very first morning, I go to my bus stop and a short bus pulls up. And so it was determined that even though the transportation that I was going to utilize in order to get back and forth to school was going to be segregated. And that's a real slap in the face. You know, my grandfather was Simeon Horne. He passed away in 2013, but he was the head of the New Brunswick chapter of the NAACP during the heart of the civil rights movement.

And he's part of the generation who fought and put their lives on the line to integrate our schools, to integrate public transportation. And here I am, his grandson, and because of a cognitive difference, I have to ride on a segregated bus and go to a very segregated setting to be educated.

And so I was not an inclusive setting. I remember I remember that separation, that segregation really working away on how I felt about myself. Left me with a lot of emotional scars that even now, as a result, I am still working very hard to rectify and correct.

And so for the families, for the educators listening to this, I would caution everyone to really think about the way in which we engineer education and particularly around the places where we place, where we put our students within our schools, because it does have a lasting effect, you know, and of the adults, the young adults and the full grown adults that I have had the pleasure of working with and getting to know over the years, those of us with disabilities who still struggle or maybe that have reached a degree of success and are still sort of working through different issues.

Most of us are dealing with issues related to mental health. All right. It tends not to be like at a certain point you can figure out all the accommodations. You know, I still have issues with spelling. I still have issues with reading.

But I figured a lot of that out right where I can be a functional, contributing member of our society. But that classroom, that separate space still sits within me, and the challenge also comes because I had a great special ed teacher.

I mean, this one was remarkable. Academically, I did a lot better. But separate is rarely equal. And, you know, and we all tend to compare ourselves to our peers. And I was very clear that I was sort of ranked towards the bottom of our school’s hierarchy.

And so it left a lasting effect on me. So much so that. As I was facing graduation from high school, I was in my junior year, I actually had what I diagnosed an emotional breakdown because I just I could not conceptualize what was going to happen to me as an adult.

I had never seen any examples of people who were in special ed who were as successful as I wanted to be. I didn't see any examples of anyone who had the same challenges around learning who was able to go to college and then have an excellent career.

And so, I was just honestly exhausted after years of trying to pass for normal. So it just got to the point where I couldn't hack it anymore.

But I was fortunate that in that dark space, I use it as an opportunity to just redefine what I wanted to be redefined, what I thought I was, and I just got determined that I was going to have an excellent future, and so I came out of that with the drive to go to college, and I was able to achieve that. I was a part of a great support system for folks with disabilities.

And it was really only when I got to college that I got to be a part of what I think of as an inclusive educational setting. You know, special ed was done. I had to go to class and everybody else, but I had accommodations. I took my tests outside of the class, and it was in that setting where I was really able to blossom.

So a big part of the work that I do now is just around helping people to reimagine what our schools can look like. You know, I think there's a sort of organizational momentum that gets built up and it becomes very easy just to keep doing things the way that we've always been doing them. But my own personal experience and my professional experience tells me that the way most of our schools function does not serve all students.

So, I’m a big supporter of inclusion, and primarily because I didn't get it while I was going through school.

Arthur: Yeah, it's so funny, like thinking back now. And listening to what you were saying about where the special ed classrooms were and the building and what message that sends to the student, like and even like you said when you went to the bus stop and you saw the shorter bus show up, it's like that's something I never thought about it that way. And it's just like automatically you realize that you are segregated and you're different than everybody else. And it's like–

LeDerick: Yeah, man. Well, it was in my IEP, like, ride the short bus, like I don't know how that was supposed to help me learn algebra. Right. But, you know, and I think like so much of this comes out of like, I think a clearer understanding of the history of our educational system is that the fact that we had so many people with disabilities who were legally prevented from going to school with everybody else.

And so, you know, there's this intense need to sort of maintain a wall between, regular kids and us. Right. And so that begins with transportation and continues through where we get placed within the school building itself.

Arthur: Yeah. And I also loved what you mentioned about your grandfather and what he fought for. And then here you are, facing the same things that he was fighting against and, trying to fix in society.

And so that's really a very powerful message that you said and really glad that you brought that up.

LeDerick: Yeah. And before you go to the next question, I just think it is important, too, that we also just remember that there is a racial component to all of this as well. Right. Like, you know, we get disproportionality it tends to be a real problem. You know, here in New Jersey, we have real issues around it that have been documented for many, many years. So, you know, unfortunately, far too many black and brown boys are the ones who tend to get placed in these segregated settings.

When there are issues around children with learning, we tend to be the ones who get placed with the diagnosis that don't necessarily lead to supports with learning, you know, but instead deal with being separated from everybody else. So, yeah, I hope that my work now is a continuation of my grandfather's fight. Yeah.

Arthur: So the next question I have to admit it was not on the original set of questions I sent you, but I have to bring it up. In researching and as I mentioned in your intro, you are a poet.

I listened to your albums over the last week or so, and I really love the Alex Place soundtrack. So can you talk about your poetry and your writing and how did you use that as a way to help you, cope with life and your disability and just getting through school and what that process is for you? And how did you come up with such great poetry tracks?

LeDerick: Well, thank you for that. So art has always been an important, part of my life, and I think I was showing signs of being a writer and a wordsmith and a poet when I was very, very young, but sort of the tyranny of spelling prevented me from expressing any of that ability.

You know, I didn't learn to really write until I got to college, and once I learned how to write a grammatically correct sentence and then essays. And then once I got the freedom to just write and not worry about spelling until the final draft, then that gave me the freedom to begin to write poetry.

But I was always obsessively trying to capture language expressed well. And so when I was really young, it was a tape recorder that I would carry around with me and record dialog from TV or song lyrics that I really enjoyed.

So it's always been there and then, it’s a lot of black boys in special ed. I went to school in the 80s and the 90s, and I was surrounded by a lot of guys that were remarkable emcees.

And so, you know, the ability to rap and express themselves and express very, very complicated ideas in very complex and entertaining ways. That was something that was always around me. And my father was a cross-country coach, and so he could, you know, motivate people and tell a story and same for my grandfather.

So I always was just I was surrounded by words. And early on in life, I really expressed myself through visual art. So it's drawing. I have a B.A. in mathematics, and I minored in fine with an emphasis in painting.

So but I'm more of a drastic thing. But once I got to college and once I learned how to write prose, then I allowed myself to be a poet and started going to open mics and performing.

And, you know, the earliest poetry that I remember hearing were my mother's like last poet albums. And the last poets were revolutionary poetry group from the 60s. And then as I got older, just poetry from me always became about giving voice to political struggle.

So once I graduated from college and began to work around advocating for people with disabilities, it almost felt natural that I would apply my writing skills to this struggle. And so, I tend to start every single one of my workshops or my keynotes with poetry, work it in throughout, in with a poem.

Sometimes I have, teachers writing raps, doing things like that. I find it to be a very effective tool to teach and to teach with. And then also an effective tool in being able to convey the emotion of where I think we need to be in order to get this work done.

Arthur: Yeah, I was really really excited to see that you had the poetry albums out. I write a little bit myself, and primarily for me it was to express the emotion of things that I was dealing with at the time, whether it be happy things, sad things, things that irritated me and made me angry.

So just writing and getting it out. And, so I really was interested in hearing how you came to came to be a poet. And I think it's great how you said it was in you because of your father and your grandfather and your mom, showing, hearing poetry from them and storytelling's and all of that from them.That's really, really great.

So you have written a book called Empowering Students with Hidden Disabilities A Path to Pride and Success. And within that book, you provide insight on how students with disabilities like learning disabilities and other hidden disabilities can be supported.

Can you share with us what an inclusive classroom that supports students with hidden disabilities would look like to you?

LeDerick: I think there are a number of elements. One of the things that I think is really specific for the challenges faced by students with his with hidden disabilities is that many of us can choose to be closeted as people with disabilities. Right. So even now, as an adult, if I wanted to, I could go through my whole life and kind of act like reading and spelling and math is not a big issue for me.

Right. And maybe if I'm lucky, I can find myself in a job or a career that plays more to my strengths and less to my challenges. And I can just kind of coast on by. I know that was a big part of like how I just sort of spent my energy and where my thoughts were when I was a young person, just like I'm going to try to act like everybody else, right.

Now if I had a wheelchair, that might be a little bit harder. Right. You know, people would look at me and be like no there’s something else going on.

Right. But I've seen this, you know, like I have a colleague with a visual impairment to start losing his sight in middle school. And he talked about, you know, getting to the point where it was like dangerous for him to be moving around without utilizing a cane.

Like he it took him actually falling down a flight of stairs in a school. And thankfully, not hurting himself, but sitting there on his back and being like, all right, I got it. I got to really embrace this.

And so I think that the piece around embracing your disability is one that we really lean into in the book. Both me and my coauthor, Dr. Margo, is that disability can be a positive identifier, but there is a lot of strength that actually comes from incorporating disability and being part of your identity, and that it doesn’t need to be something that is stigmatized, but can instead be thought of as being a part of the continuum of human diversity.

So, you know, a classroom where every student is very clear about what their strengths and their challenges are.

You know, I can see a classroom where particularly as our students get older, where they're able to articulate to their teacher, you know, this is how I need this information presented to me.

And then I think it's also, you know, for me, it's also a place where regardless of how a student presents that, all of our educators are looking for the ways in which they can be of most support for all of our students, particularly those with hidden disabilities.

Arthur: Yeah, as you said, like I mentioned, I use crutches and a wheelchair at times. So it is very difficult for me to– I can't hide my disability at all. You know, people might not know what it is right away when they see me or when I approach, but they know, like you said, something else is going on here.

LeDerick: And I wonder like and it's probably right, I'm sure it's probably annoying, but I'm sure you also have probably people offering help all the time, right?

Arthur: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

LeDerick: And probably unwanted most of the time, right.

Arthur: Yeah. So I'm glad. And that and I am glad that they ask. I'm glad that they ask if I need help, though, because there are the people that just go right for it and they grab the bags from you.

“Oh, here, let me help you.” Like. No, no, no. Please, don't. I've been doing this a long time like this. And that can actually cause more harm than good, because if you grab something from me and I'm on my crutches, I can fall.

It can throw off my balance and I can fall. So it's always I always appreciated the people ask before they help. And, I can gladly tell them, you know, “Thank you. I got it.”

Then, we move on from there, but just don't walk up and grab stuff from me and all of that. That's the worst.

LeDerick: And and the challenge for, you know, folks with hidden disabilities. No one's going to ask us for help. Right. And, particularly as you transition into the adult world and whether it be trying to find success within an institution of higher education or independent living or in the workforce, no one's going to ask for help like I have to. Right. And it's part of the work that I do is encouraging our students to be comfortable raising their hand and saying, hey, I need assistance here, you know, and that that goes wrong to sort of navigating the world right into accessing the offices of accessibility and disability supports on a college campus or going to H.R. and your job and saying, hey, here are some accommodations that I need.

Or being comfortable having a conversation with the people that you meet, friends, family, associates, about the sort of supports that you might need just to make a social interaction happen in the optimal way.

Right. Like I get really distracted. We're talking here, but I'm like watching squirrels right out of my window here. Right. Like a is a big issue for me. So, you know, when I go out to dinner, we're recording during the pandemic.

But like when we used to go out to dinner, I always had to make sure that, like I'm not facing the big screen TV or, you know, or the window or what have you like. If I'm trying to have a conversation with my wife, I'm trying to have a conversation with my wife.

So, you know, I'll do all that I can kind of block all the distraction.

Arthur: Yeah, it's it goes back to what you were saying before of embracing your disability and knowing what, like you said, being comfortable with saying like, “Hey, I didn't understand that. I need some assistance. Can you repeat that or bring that back around for me one more time and let me know?” And then also creating the setting for yourself, as you just mentioned, of using that going out to dinner as an example, blocking out those barriers for yourself that, would cause a distraction if that's something that is difficult for you to focus when other things are going on.

So, yeah, thank you for this great conversation. Again, it was really great to meet you virtually, and thank you for your time today and for the information you shared and sharing your story.

I really appreciate that part of this conversation. I think it's important that we do hear real stories of people with disabilities like yourself who have gone through the education system.

And now you're doing something to make it better to improve it for other students coming up now. And, so I really appreciate this conversation. And thank you so much for your time.

LeDerick: Thank you for having me.

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media at NJCIE. Until next time.