Episode 4: Inclusive Education, A Parent's Perspective

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast we welcome my guest Wendy Lacey. Wendy and I discuss inclusive education from a parent’s perspective, and she shares the benefits her family saw from having her daughter who has Downs Syndrome in an inclusive classroom setting

Episode Transcript

Arthur: Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. As the name suggests, this podcast will discuss inclusive education and most importantly, why it works.

On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast, I welcome my guest, Wendy Lacey. Wendy and I discuss inclusive education from a parent's perspective, and the benefits her family saw by having her daughter, who has Down syndrome in an inclusive education setting.

Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for an Inclusive Education.

I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to have my guest, Wendy Lacy, on the show with us today. So, Wendy, welcome to the podcast and I'm excited for our conversation. 

Wendy: And I'm so happy to be here, Arthur, thank you for the invitation.

Arthur: Oh, yes, you're welcome. So to get started, can you share with us what does inclusive education, in general, what does that mean to you and how would you define that? 

Wendy: So by way of background, I have four children all now teenagers, and one of my children has a disability.

She has Down syndrome, and she's been educated in an inclusive setting since she was young. And so, when I think of inclusive education and my family's experience, I think about it as being as providing opportunities for students with disabilities to learn alongside their peers in their own neighborhoods and in their own communities.

And I think inclusive education also has an important component of giving students and educators the tools they need to make that successful education happen in that setting. I think inclusive education means more than physically being in the same building.

It means it's more than just having someone like my daughter being the same recess as her typically developing peers or in the same class or music class. It's really about giving the students meaningful opportunities to get to know each other, to learn alongside each other, and to learn from each other.

Arthur: That’s so true, and it goes beyond the classroom, as you said, to the playgrounds, the recess time, it goes way beyond just the classroom setting and the learning in the classroom, because, as someone myself with a disability, it’s nice when I'm able to fit in.

Even now as an adult, it's nice when I'm able to just be incorporated into a group of people of my peers at a concert or someplace like that where I like to go, or at the movie theater or something like that.

It goes way beyond the classroom and it sets up a situation from early in someone's life to what they will face throughout their life in adulthood for situations where everybody is expected to be in the same place at the same time and interact with each other.

So it starts in the classroom, but it does go way beyond that setting for sure. 

Wendy: And you're right. Yeah. Inclusive Education really sets the setting for what our society should be like overall for everyone. 

Arthur: Yes, definitely. Wow! That was good. That was really good. 

So, when you were answering that first question, you mentioned that your daughter has Down syndrome and that she was in an inclusive classroom setting through her education time and time in school.

As a parent, what were some of the benefits that you saw that your daughter was gaining from being in an inclusive classroom setting? 

Wendy: So, you know, it's hard to say. She's 17 now, so Evelyn is 17 years old and she's going to be a junior at Montclair High School.

When I say that Evelyn has been in an inclusive setting since she was a baby, what I mean by that is from the very beginning, she attended and did her therapy sessions at the Ben Samuels Center at Montclair State University.

We sent her to typical preschool. So really from the beginning, we embraced, as a family, the philosophy of inclusion. And a lot of that came from speaking to our parental peers who had children with disabilities, who are older than ours, who gave us the advice of think about where you want your child to be 20, 30 years from now, and then set the path based on that. 

And so, having Evelyn grow up to be as independent as possible is really what made us believe in the importance of inclusive education. 

So it's hard to say. Obviously, It's hard to say exactly what her life would be like if she didn't do inclusive education. But I am very, very confident that learning alongside her peers in her own community has helped her develop a sense of belonging, a sense of pride and a steady path towards independence.

From the very beginning, she was able to observe and model her peers and learn about what the appropriate social interactions look like. Being in an inclusive setting has helped us as parents set our own expectations very high for her.

Made us understand what she could accomplish if given the right tools and support, made us understand why it was important to have her be a part of her own community. Have other families see her at school events, know that she belongs here too and should feel welcome.

As simple as this, we wanted as a family to be able to go to a restaurant, for example, in Montclair and have other children, other families give her a wave because they recognized her and knew her and not look at her because she was different.

And so, inclusive education is a lot more than just about what happens in the classroom. It's about being a part of the fabric of your community. 

So as parents, being in an inclusive setting has also helped us realize what we need to do to shape our future. Now that she's in high school, we see her peers getting ready for college, getting ready for careers and have those conversations. And you know what? Evelyn's path might ultimately veer from theirs over the long term. But those same basic considerations are happening, right.

Will she have additional schooling? What will she do for work? What's going to make her happy, where she's going to live? And so, our embracing inclusive education really has set us on this path of how to make her the independent young woman who is happy in life and giving us the tools to do that.

Arthur: I love that you use the word independent and independence multiple times. It reminded me of my own parents with me and that, I think that is what every parent strives for, how they can help their child achieve their best potential and their highest level of accomplishments and the independence, whatever that looks like for that individual. 

I also love what you said about being able to go out and having students and other families wave to Evelyn and say, ‘Hi’, ‘Hey, she's in my class.’

That’s what children look for when they go out and their friends. And having her in the inclusive setting in the classroom, that really, does help out with those types of situations outside of the classroom in the world.

And that, yeah, that was really cool. It really reminded me of my own parents there. So I kept smiling. 

Wendy: You know what’s nice, too? When I think about what's going on right now in our family. Evelyn is at two weeks of sleep-away camp at Frost Valley YMCA at the YMCA camp in upstate New York. And this is maybe her fourth time doing that, a two week sleep-away program. And it is bittersweet, I mean, to see her get there. There’s lots of kids in Montclair who go to camp there, and so to pull up there for drop-off and see families we know and again, have them give a big greeting to her. It’s really, it's something special. But boy, I miss her at sleep away camp.

Sometimes I'm like is this independence thing, OK? Because I really miss her. Those are tools I like to think, or let me say, I'm confident in my thinking that the fact that we've had her in an inclusive setting has given her that confidence that she can do something like this, just like her peers are doing. Enjoying this kind of camp experience, enjoying dance classes in town, film classes, things outside the classroom. But she got that confidence to be able to do those things from being amongst her peers in the classroom.

Arthur: Yeah, that's really great. And two weeks at sleep-away camp.

Wendy: I want to do that. Right? Grown up camp, please. 

Arthur: Yes. Is there a sleep away camp for adults? Like just for two weeks?

I might even take a week at this point, just step by step away and be in nature for a couple of days like that would be that would be great at this time, for sure.

Yes, definitely sounds like the dream. 

Arthur: So, you and your family started Cornerstone Montclair. Can you tell us what that is and how it came to be, and about some of the great things that you all do there?

Wendy: Sure. Cornerstone Montclair is a business that's built around the philosophy that community inclusion is critically important for our society in general. In order for the benefits of inclusive education to be fully realized, right. There's a continuum here.

It's not going to help if Evelyn and her peers with disabilities are in inclusive education settings and then they age out of the public school system. And then there's nothing for them to do, right? So inclusion is a continuum.

It does not stop after you leave the public school system. And that is the ultimate goal, I think, for all of us. And so, my family established Cornerstone Montclair almost four years ago. It's a philosophy based on inclusion, but also a physical place.

So we own a small commercial building in Upper Montclair. There are five businesses that take up space in the building. In order to be here, you have to support and do something actively to support the philosophy of inclusion.

So we have five businesses here who do something for that goal. I'll give you two concrete examples. One of the businesses here is the Inclusive Movement Center. I am going to speak about them a little bit, and some of the things I say are based on pre-Covid experiences.

So the Inclusive Movement Center is a healthy business and running now, but before Covid, they were very popular for their ninja warrior classes. So they would have I think they had almost 20 different classes a week. Each one of their classes mostly were made up of typically developing students.

However, they are award-winning, an adaptive physiology, in every one of their classes would have several children who had disabilities integrated in with their peers. They have fantastic equipment and fantastic instructors that enabled fun classes that were open and able to accommodate kids of all abilities. 

And in addition to that, the Inclusive Movement Center, also had interns with and without disabilities working with them. So there they are up and running again after the worst of the pandemic, but it’s a little different, obviously, because much smaller size classes that are working together.

And then there's the General Store, which my family also owns. And the store is a retro style gift store. And it is a lot of fun. We carry a little of everything. We appeal to a wide range of people, customers.

And then we also hire, I have about 10 or 11 employees right now. Half of them have disabilities. Mostly high school and college students. And then the other half don't have disabilities. And I don't like to say that I use the buddy system, but I do like to overlap staff when possible so that they're learning from each other, and just as importantly, building relationships together. So that is the kind of thing that's going on in this building with all the businesses here. We also have a community room that's used for a wide range of things.

I do want to pause and say that I am careful to try and make sure the image of this building is not one that it's a building for quote unquote special needs kids or just for people with disabilities.

I like to say this is a building that has a lot of stuff going on for a wide range of people. It just makes sure that that wide range of people includes people and is especially welcome and accessible to people who have disabilities.

So my community room, which is the room I’m in now. Yes, we have social skills groups. We've had support groups. And here we've had support groups that have nothing to do with people with disabilities. We have senior citizen yoga that takes place here, our classes.

So it varies from time to time, but it's a lot of different things. One of the stories I love is we had a Valentine's Day activity here for students. This is going back maybe two years now, and it was an activity where parents would sign up and we had staff here helping children make Valentine's Day cards and again, for all abilities. And one parent reached out, very grateful, because she said it was one of the only activities that her two young daughters were able to do together.

And one of her daughters had a significant disability and one didn't. And she said there aren't a lot of places where she feels like they can be together for an activity. And our goal is to not be the only business like that, but to be a role model for other businesses.

And I do want to clarify that Cornerstone Montclair is not a nonprofit. I'd like to say we're a self-sustaining building, but I don't believe you have to be a nonprofit to do the right thing to include everyone in your community.

Arthur: Yeah, I love all of the work that you're doing, and I live in South Jersey, but the second I can get up there, I would love to come and check out the space, it sounds like a great place.

And I love what you've said, that it's not just for people with disabilities, but it's a space for everybody that also includes those with disabilities, because I always like to say people with disabilities are in your communities.

They are in your towns, they’re in your neighbors, and they're going to the stores and the movies and the malls that you go to, and there needs to be space for them to be included in and in places like yours. So it's really great. 

Wendy: I would also add that I also tell people and I hear this from people all the time. I think the last statistic that I read was 20 percent of families will experience disability directly in their life, whether it's an individual themselves or someone that they love.

And so, everyone is going to be touched with these type of challenges throughout their life or a large portion of the society will be. And I hear that a lot from people who come in. I've met some amazing families and amazing people just come in and said, oh, I heard about what you're doing and I can relate to this because my father, my son, my daughter, my cousin and everyone has the story, and in a lot of ways, this building, this business has been a connector of people. I've literally had somebody come in and start talk to me about their inclusive education experience and then have a woman across the room in the store say, oh, I'm moving here from Brooklyn and I'm interested in inclusive education. Can we talk? And those two people go outside and sit on a bench together and chat. And I love that, right? because, that's what it's about. That's really building community, right? 

And helping people and being an informal resource for people. You know, one of the other things I want to say about the store that I don't think I mentioned was that I go out of my way to carry products in artwork made by people with disabilities.

And that is also just been such a fun way to meet different people from across the country and all over the world. I have artwork by local artists. I carry dog treats from a young woman and entrepreneur and Milwaukie cookies from a baker in North Carolina who has a disability eye all over the place, chocolates from a young woman in Georgia who has a disability, bath bombs—And so that's all integrated in to what's here. And sometimes customers know that and sometimes they don't. And when they're checking out, I say, hey, do you know that this entrepreneur is such an incredible entrepreneur?

And look at this challenge they have as well. People are really interested to hear those stories.

Arthur: That is such a great thing to raise that awareness about disabilities and the accomplishments of those and the talents of those who have disabilities.

Because I always say and I always hear that, my disability is physical. My disability is a mobility disability. So it's ‘Oh, he can't walk.’ And, it's always what they can't do. People with disabilities, ‘they can't see.’

They can't walk. But it's a great way. What you're doing is a great way to focus on the positive, the flip side of things, and say like, yeah, they have these challenges they face. These are, these obstacles because of their limitations that are created by their disability.

But they also have these talents of doing artwork, creating bath bombs, and chocolates and things like that. So that's really, really cool. And I always love hearing stories because I am not talented in many ways.

So I'm always excited to hear of anybody's great ideas that they have with products that they can create. 

Wendy: Yeah, well, you're talented at this. 

Arthur: Thank you. 

Wendy: I also know one of the things, one of the values that I have up on the wall is empowerment, and I love buying these products by people with disabilities. 

One of the things I really try to avoid is a pity party. Like I don't want customers saying, ‘oh, this is so sweet,’ and this—you know what? It's not sweet.

This person is making a living and has their own business and you can give them your money. Right? I mean, I think it's about respect and empowerment. And along those lines, I'm also, I don't have volunteers really.

On occasion, I have people volunteer for a special event or a special project. But I really do try to steer away from that, because I think employment—paid employment—is important. And that is part of empowerment and respect.

Arthur: It is I love the empowerment and I love the fact that you said you stay away from the pity parties like that's so important to keep things positive. And also the paid employment. That is a huge thing for people with disabilities, for sure. So it's great that you are able to provide that for them.

One of the other things about Cornerstone Montclair is that you have mission partners that are businesses, educators, and service providers. 

Why would you say those are important partnerships to have within the community? 

Wendy: Well, I think shared values just helped get things done in a more efficient and stronger way. I mean, we send a stronger message together about the role that people disabilities can lead in their community.

There's a lot of synergies that happen here, too. So I'll give you an example of how we work together. Again, we're all separate businesses here, but I have an adult who's on the autism spectrum who just started working here, and he's particularly good working with customers.

And the speech therapist upstairs was working with one of her clients to develop a roleplaying script about let's pretend we work in the store. And this is how she's helping to develop social skills and speech skills.

And my employee was asked to be a consultant on this video that they were doing. And he was great. He's like, ‘that's not what I would say to a customer. I would say this or I would suggest that.’

And it was just a great way, a great reminder by having businesses with shared values and goals in the building, that we can play off each other and really build things based on the synergies that sometimes just pop up from being in the same place, in the same time.

But mostly it's about being with groups of people and professionals who really agree that providing opportunities and platforms for people with disabilities to feel fulfilled and welcome in their own communities is important. 

Arthur: Yeah, you've definitely as you mentioned, you've taken inclusive education outside of the classroom setting, and into the real world and into the community, which is so needed. 

It's something that's definitely needed. And for you to be, you know, the first in your community to do such a thing, it's really, you know, it's great to be that role model and that setting that standard for what's capable from other businesses to do, so That's really great. I'm really excited that Cornerstone Montclair exists. That really, really makes me happy for sure. 

Wendy: Can’t wait to have you here.
Arthur: Yes. So to wrap up our conversation today, what would you say is one thing that can be done in order to better improve inclusive education?

Wendy: Well, I think as a society, we just have to be committed to train new teachers, to genuinely embrace inclusion and give them the tools they need to do that. I think we all know how hard teachers work. We need to support them and give them the tools that they need for that to happen.

But I think that has to happen when teachers are in school themselves, learning how to be educators. It's got to be really a requirement in part of the fabric of their own education. And again, the supports that they need to have that happen.

Arthur: Yes, like you said, it has to start before they get into the classroom so that they know they know what it is, they know what it's supposed to look like. And I love that answer.

It's so true, because if they're learning about it in their college courses and their other student teaching experiences, they're able to implement it whenever they become teachers. That's really great. Right. Yeah.

Well, Wendy, I thank you for this conversation. It was great getting to talk to you. It's nice to meet you virtually. And I look forward to continuing our conversation offline and figuring out ways that I can be involved with you all there. It's really, really great what you're doing. So thank you so much for sharing your story and your family story and what you're doing up there in Montclair. And I look forward to talking with you again soon. 

Wendy: Well, thanks for the opportunity, it was so nice to speak with you, and NJCIE is lucky to have you on board.

Arthur: Oh, well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And again, I appreciate this conversation. Have a great day. 

Wendy: You, too. 

Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.

Be sure to subscribe on YouTube or Spotify. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.